Pro-lifers only

[memphis]

Presuming that "abortion is murder" (as countless protest signs explain), shouldn't it follow that the legal penalty be either death or life in prison, as is the standard punishment for murder? Should this apply to the doctor, the mother, or both? Discuss.

[memphis]

anyone?

[12th Doctor]

1) I would be willing to bet that all the people who answered thus far are actually pro-choicers.

2) The reason people aren't answering is because most of us understand that it is a more complicated issue than you give us credit for.

3) The point I presume you are making which is "if abortion is murder, but you won't give it equal sentencing, then it must not be murder, then is it" (and when I write that, I imagine you having the same voice as the kid who runs around in 2nd Grade saying "Santa's not real, stupid."), is a warn out point that only indicates your lack of nuanced thought when approaching the subject.

[realisticidealist]

Life imprisonment for the doctor, as all murderers should get, and accessory to murder or a similar charge (solicitation of murder?) for the mother that could result in up to life in prison. Honestly, this isn't a part of the abortion issue that I've thought a lot about, though.

[Grumps]

I love the argument some make that you can't be pro-life and for the death penalty.  Like the two have anything to do with each other.

Oh, and I'm pro-choice up until the fetus can survive outside the womb......I'll let doctors determine if and how they can, I have no clue when that its.

[realisticidealist]

I love the argument some make that you can't be pro-life and for the death penalty.  Like the two have anything to do with each other.

It depends on what reason a person is pro-life. If they are against abortion because they believe that life is sacred, then they should be against the death penalty.

[Bo]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

[JSojourner]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

Life in prison for the doctors, the women or both? 

(Might be wise to buy stock in a company that builds prisons!)

[memphis]

1) I would be willing to bet that all the people who answered thus far are actually pro-choicers.

2) The reason people aren't answering is because most of us understand that it is a more complicated issue than you give us credit for.

3) The point I presume you are making which is "if abortion is murder, but you won't give it equal sentencing, then it must not be murder, then is it" (and when I write that, I imagine you having the same voice as the kid who runs around in 2nd Grade saying "Santa's not real, stupid."), is a warn out point that only indicates your lack of nuanced thought when approaching the subject.

You certainly do presume a lot about people. I was actually looking for honest answers,  something you failed to give.

[Bo]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

Life in prison for the doctors, the women or both? 

(Might be wise to buy stock in a company that builds prisons!)

Life in prison for both.

[JSojourner]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

Life in prison for the doctors, the women or both? 

(Might be wise to buy stock in a company that builds prisons!)

Life in prison for both.

Like I say...buy stock in companies that build prisons.  You'll make a killing. 

And I presume you'll gladly pay substantially more in taxes to build the prisons.  And hire the police investigators, judges, court appointed attorneys, court reporters, bailiffs, clerks and other personnel who will make sure the already burgeoning legal system isn't further overwhelmed.

[Benwah [why on Earth do I post something] Courseyay]

I love the argument some make that you can't be pro-life and for the death penalty.  Like the two have anything to do with each other.

It depends on what reason a person is pro-life. If they are against abortion because they believe that life is sacred, then they should be against the death penalty.

Yes, there is the 'a baby is innocent' bit I guess but a bit of logic would include that they have to choose, either life is sacred either it is not.

[Coburn In 2012]

Death sentance for mother and doctor.  life in prison for others like nurses midwifes and etc.

[Hashemite]

If I was pro-life, probably a charge similar to manslaughter.

[Bo]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

Life in prison for the doctors, the women or both? 

(Might be wise to buy stock in a company that builds prisons!)

Life in prison for both.

Like I say...buy stock in companies that build prisons.  You'll make a killing. 

And I presume you'll gladly pay substantially more in taxes to build the prisons.  And hire the police investigators, judges, court appointed attorneys, court reporters, bailiffs, clerks and other personnel who will make sure the already burgeoning legal system isn't further overwhelmed.

How about you tax the rich more to do that? The rich could return to their pre-Reagan 70+% tax rates. 35% or 40% is way too low. Besides, we had high economic growth in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, when tax rates on the rich were 90+% most of the time.

[JSojourner]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

Life in prison for the doctors, the women or both? 

(Might be wise to buy stock in a company that builds prisons!)

Life in prison for both.

Like I say...buy stock in companies that build prisons.  You'll make a killing. 

And I presume you'll gladly pay substantially more in taxes to build the prisons.  And hire the police investigators, judges, court appointed attorneys, court reporters, bailiffs, clerks and other personnel who will make sure the already burgeoning legal system isn't further overwhelmed.

How about you tax the rich more to do that? The rich could return to their pre-Reagan 70+% tax rates. 35% or 40% is way too low. Besides, we had high economic growth in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, when tax rates on the rich were 90+% most of the time.

Or how about leaving the matter to women, their doctors, their spouses when applicable and their clergy...and using those tax increases to create a culture that truly values life...where adoption is much easier and where the threat of poverty, illiteracy and crime aren't factors in prodding women toward abortion?  Better...what about encouraging abstinence and, when that fails, making sure the morning-after pill is freely available?

Or do you prefer prisons bursting at the seams, court dockets clogged to the point of paralysis, police departments investigating abortion reports as if they haven't enough to do already and women dying from illegal abortions?

Your pick.  Safe, legal and extremely rare.  Or extremely dangerous, criminal and quite common.

[Mint]

The same as it was before in most states. If a doctor is caught deliberately inducing abortions outside of exceptional circumstances, it is treated as professional misconduct and he loses his license. That's the law in Ireland too IIRC.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

Life in prison for the doctors, the women or both? 

(Might be wise to buy stock in a company that builds prisons!)

Life in prison for both.

Like I say...buy stock in companies that build prisons.  You'll make a killing. 

And I presume you'll gladly pay substantially more in taxes to build the prisons.  And hire the police investigators, judges, court appointed attorneys, court reporters, bailiffs, clerks and other personnel who will make sure the already burgeoning legal system isn't further overwhelmed.

How about you tax the rich more to do that? The rich could return to their pre-Reagan 70+% tax rates. 35% or 40% is way too low. Besides, we had high economic growth in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, when tax rates on the rich were 90+% most of the time.

Or how about leaving the matter to women, their doctors, their spouses when applicable and their clergy...and using those tax increases to create a culture that truly values life...where adoption is much easier and where the threat of poverty, illiteracy and crime aren't factors in prodding women toward abortion?  Better...what about encouraging abstinence and, when that fails, making sure the morning-after pill is freely available?

Or do you prefer prisons bursting at the seams, court dockets clogged to the point of paralysis, police departments investigating abortion reports as if they haven't enough to do already and women dying from illegal abortions?

Your pick.  Safe, legal and extremely rare.  Or extremely dangerous, criminal and quite common.

[JSojourner]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

Life in prison for the doctors, the women or both? 

(Might be wise to buy stock in a company that builds prisons!)

Life in prison for both.

Like I say...buy stock in companies that build prisons.  You'll make a killing. 

And I presume you'll gladly pay substantially more in taxes to build the prisons.  And hire the police investigators, judges, court appointed attorneys, court reporters, bailiffs, clerks and other personnel who will make sure the already burgeoning legal system isn't further overwhelmed.

How about you tax the rich more to do that? The rich could return to their pre-Reagan 70+% tax rates. 35% or 40% is way too low. Besides, we had high economic growth in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, when tax rates on the rich were 90+% most of the time.

Or how about leaving the matter to women, their doctors, their spouses when applicable and their clergy...and using those tax increases to create a culture that truly values life...where adoption is much easier and where the threat of poverty, illiteracy and crime aren't factors in prodding women toward abortion?  Better...what about encouraging abstinence and, when that fails, making sure the morning-after pill is freely available?

Or do you prefer prisons bursting at the seams, court dockets clogged to the point of paralysis, police departments investigating abortion reports as if they haven't enough to do already and women dying from illegal abortions?

Your pick.  Safe, legal and extremely rare.  Or extremely dangerous, criminal and quite common.

In other words, you got nothing.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

Life in prison for the doctors, the women or both? 

(Might be wise to buy stock in a company that builds prisons!)

Life in prison for both.

Like I say...buy stock in companies that build prisons.  You'll make a killing. 

And I presume you'll gladly pay substantially more in taxes to build the prisons.  And hire the police investigators, judges, court appointed attorneys, court reporters, bailiffs, clerks and other personnel who will make sure the already burgeoning legal system isn't further overwhelmed.

How about you tax the rich more to do that? The rich could return to their pre-Reagan 70+% tax rates. 35% or 40% is way too low. Besides, we had high economic growth in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, when tax rates on the rich were 90+% most of the time.

Or how about leaving the matter to women, their doctors, their spouses when applicable and their clergy...and using those tax increases to create a culture that truly values life...where adoption is much easier and where the threat of poverty, illiteracy and crime aren't factors in prodding women toward abortion?  Better...what about encouraging abstinence and, when that fails, making sure the morning-after pill is freely available?

Or do you prefer prisons bursting at the seams, court dockets clogged to the point of paralysis, police departments investigating abortion reports as if they haven't enough to do already and women dying from illegal abortions?

Your pick.  Safe, legal and extremely rare.  Or extremely dangerous, criminal and quite common.

In other words, JSojourner's post is nonsense.

Fixed.

[JSojourner]

Life in Prison, unless the abortion provided was for rape, incest, maternal life, or maternal health for which case there should be no punishment.

Life in prison for the doctors, the women or both? 

(Might be wise to buy stock in a company that builds prisons!)

Life in prison for both.

Like I say...buy stock in companies that build prisons.  You'll make a killing. 

And I presume you'll gladly pay substantially more in taxes to build the prisons.  And hire the police investigators, judges, court appointed attorneys, court reporters, bailiffs, clerks and other personnel who will make sure the already burgeoning legal system isn't further overwhelmed.

How about you tax the rich more to do that? The rich could return to their pre-Reagan 70+% tax rates. 35% or 40% is way too low. Besides, we had high economic growth in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, when tax rates on the rich were 90+% most of the time.

Or how about leaving the matter to women, their doctors, their spouses when applicable and their clergy...and using those tax increases to create a culture that truly values life...where adoption is much easier and where the threat of poverty, illiteracy and crime aren't factors in prodding women toward abortion?  Better...what about encouraging abstinence and, when that fails, making sure the morning-after pill is freely available?

Or do you prefer prisons bursting at the seams, court dockets clogged to the point of paralysis, police departments investigating abortion reports as if they haven't enough to do already and women dying from illegal abortions?

Your pick.  Safe, legal and extremely rare.  Or extremely dangerous, criminal and quite common.

In other words, JSojourner's post is nonsense.

Fixed.

More nonsensical that putting women and doctors to death?  Or clogging our prisons and courts even more than they are?

Ohhhhh...wait.  I get it.  Fine them.  Give them community service or something?  So really, you don't give a sh**t about the fetus, beyond what purpose it serves as a political football.

Logically, if it is a sentient human being and it is killed...you would either seek the death penalty or the stiffest possible prison terms for those who murder it.  Even sentences of manslaughter or criminal recklessness come down to years in prison and not mere weeks or months.  So where will the prison space come from and how will it be paid for?  Will the road and bridge fairies some of your Libertarian friends believe in also magically build prisons and supply guards to contain these brutal offenders?  And I suppose the same fairy dust will double or triple the personnel in our judicial and policing systems?  Crimes must be investigated and prosecuted.  That's what it means to criminalize something.

Unless you don't really WANT to criminalize abortion, that is.  Unless what you really want is to simply make having an abortion a matter of paying a fine.  Doctors can lose their licenses, I suppose.  But then, how many abortions will actually be performed by doctors once it is illegal? So then you go after the coat hanger butchers for practicing medicine without a license?  That works fine, but then we get back to prisons overflowing.  What were the abortion rates before Roe?  Prosecute a third of them and what happens to our courts, our jails, etc?  Don't prosecute them, and your crusade means nothing.

And if your DON'T want to criminalize abortion and just want to take the slap on the wrist route, then you've proven you don't believe a real human being is involved.  It's just not important enough to warrant serious jail time, evidently.  So then abortion becomes what it has always been for the anti-choice movement -- a means of mobilizing millions of people who, though sincere, haven't thought through the ramifications of criminalization.

As to making abortion safe, legal and rare...what the hell is wrong with that?  I mean, aside from the fact that it will involve putting your tax money where your mouth is.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

As to making abortion safe, legal and rare...what the hell is wrong with that?  I mean, aside from the fact that it will involve putting your tax money where your mouth is.

The fact that it's nothing but a left-wing catch-phrase...like the rest of what you're posting. You're also forgetting--of course I consider it wrong; I don't support the legality of abortions.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

And for what it's worth, I believe abortion ought to be illegal and it ought to carry a strict punishment. Yes, it will require some people going to jail, but that's preferable to abortionists just going free without their activities being punished.

[anvi]

I'm sorry for horning in on a pro-lifers only thread, but I have to say this.

"Safe, legal and rare" is not just a catchphrase; it points to very real issues.

Let's say Mr. and Mrs. Y, who have very strong religious committments and believe that abortion is the taking of a human life, have a single 19-year old daughter who still lives with them.  Their daughter becomes pregnant, but decides out of fear that she does not want to tell her parents about the pregnancy, and that she does not want to carry the pregnancy to term.  Secretly, the daughter has an abortion.  Now, which of these two alternatives would Mr. and Mrs. Y prefer; that their daughter have the abortion performed by medically untrained friends without medical equipment in those friends' unsantized basement, or that their daughter be in the care of licensed physicians in adequately supplied and sanitized facilities?  Were Mr. and Mrs. Y to find out about these events after the fact, they surely would not approve of the abortion, but at least could rest assured that their daughter was given the best possible care in the process and the risks to her own health were minimized.  That is why abortion should be safe and legal, because regardless of what anyone believes about the rights of unborn fetuses, the 19 year-old girl should not have her own health jepordized under the circumstances, and the state has the duty to ensure that medical care is available for her, as a citizen and a legal adult.

Why should abortions be rare?  Because, regardless of what anyone believes about the rights of unborn fetuses, the causes that lead to abortion, the process itself, and the psychological and social consequences of abortion are all terrible.  It would be better for everyone if we could minimize abortions as much as possible.

Safe, legal and rare is a good forumula for this issue.

[Bo]

Look, I'm all in favor of birth control and passing out free condoms to everyone. I find it hypocritical that many pro-lifers oppose birth control. I mean, birth control is necessary to prevent abortion. If you want to prevent a pregnant woman from killing her baby, you need to make sure that she doesn't get pregnant in the first place. That's where birth control comes in. BTW, the pro-death slogan of making abortion "safe, legal, and rare" is mostly just rhetoric. They just want to make it safe and legal, not rare. How about both parties and sides do much more to promote birth control as to decrease the number of abortions? That will prevent a lot of innocent babies from getting killed and I think promoting birth control is something both sides need to agree on.