US not the only country with a paralyzed government

[Beet]

Indonesia Growth Curbed By Rice Paddies as China Builds Roads

Jan. 20 (Bloomberg) -- The unfinished six-lane highway ends five minutes’ walk from Nur Salim’s rice paddy in Java, Indonesia. The road, part of a commercial artery through the world’s most populated island, is stalled because the farmer wants more money for a plot the size of a tennis court.

“We’re going to fight to the end,” Salim, a 55-year-old goatherd, said in his dimly lit wooden house. “We have no deadline.”

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono campaigned for re- election in July on a pledge to double spending on roads, rails and ports to $140 billion over the next five years, part of a push to deliver economic growth of at least 6.6 percent.

He has a ways to go. During his first five-year term, only 125 kilometers (78 miles) of toll roads were built, compared with China’s 4,719 kilometers of toll roads last year alone. He hasn’t exercised his authority to confiscate land, a power only the president has.

[snip]

Inadequate roads, ports and railways mean orange juice from the Indonesian side of Borneo costs more than that from China, four times as far away, according to Zaldy Ilham Masita, chairman of the Indonesia Logistics Association in Jakarta.

“Companies come here because they see a huge market that will buy their goods, but they don’t intend to make Indonesia a production center because of the high logistics costs,” Masita said in a telephone interview.

[snip]

The Trans-Java Expressway, spanning the same distance as from New York to Chicago, has been hobbled by land acquisition difficulties since its conception in 1988. More than half the land for the 1,192-kilometer highway, about a quarter of which has been built, hasn’t been obtained, according to the Public Works Ministry.

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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=a3IptZSmbk18

lol!! you guys suck too! schadenfreude!

[Linus Van Pelt]

Sounds a bit paralyzed to be sure in a typical third-world way, but building as much road as a country with over a billion people, a dictatorship that doesn't let pesky due process stand in its way, and a mad-dog level of export-driven growth is perhaps a little high as a standard.

All things considered, considering where Indonesia was fifteen years ago, the current democracy has managed pretty well, actually.

[Beet]

Sounds a bit paralyzed to be sure in a typical third-world way, but building as much road as a country with over a billion people, a dictatorship that doesn't let pesky due process stand in its way, and a mad-dog level of export-driven growth is perhaps a little high as a standard.

All things considered, considering where Indonesia was fifteen years ago, the current democracy has managed pretty well, actually.

Indonesia could have had a mad dog level of export driven growth if it had better infrastructure. It may seem hard to think of now but 15 years ago they were well ahead of China.

[Linus Van Pelt]

Well, I meant more that they had a dictatorship nearing the end of its shelf life, which could have led to a bloodbath. But if we're talking strictly the economy, the 1997 currency crisis wasn't caused by lack of infrastructure. And Indonesia still has a higher GDP per capita than China wrong, and its 6.1 % growth in 2008 isn't exactly sluggish, even if much less than China's 9.6% still isn't all that shabby.

I don't deny that the basic point that lack of infrastucture hurts the country - I'm just saying we should keep things in perspective when we're talking about a third-world country that's had a successful transition from dictatorship to democracy.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Can I make the blatant add-on that this thread is an example of why I hate the term 'third world'.

[Sbane]

Sounds a bit paralyzed to be sure in a typical third-world way, but building as much road as a country with over a billion people, a dictatorship that doesn't let pesky due process stand in its way, and a mad-dog level of export-driven growth is perhaps a little high as a standard.

All things considered, considering where Indonesia was fifteen years ago, the current democracy has managed pretty well, actually.

Indonesia could have had a mad dog level of export driven growth if it had better infrastructure. It may seem hard to think of now but 15 years ago they were well ahead of China.

Do you prefer China's way of development which doesn't care at all about the people who may be affected by these projects? It may be slow but the kind of development that happens in a democracy is more stable than in a country like China. I am sure Indonesia's growth rate is being hurt by their lack of infrastructure (same thing can be said for India where you see the same kind of hurdles to infrastructure projects), but they will be a more stable country in the long haul.

[Beet]

Well, I meant more that they had a dictatorship nearing the end of its shelf life, which could have led to a bloodbath. But if we're talking strictly the economy, the 1997 currency crisis wasn't caused by lack of infrastructure. And Indonesia still has a higher GDP per capita than China, and its 6.1 % growth in 2008 isn't exactly sluggish, even if much less than China's 9.6% still isn't all that shabby.

I don't deny that the basic point that lack of infrastucture hurts the country - I'm just saying we should keep things in perspective when we're talking about a third-world country that's had a successful transition from dictatorship to democracy.

So having a transition from dictatorship to democracy lowers the expectations bar for how long? I agree that transition to democracy is an achievement but that was 12 years ago.

Also, China's per capital GDP is higher than Indonesia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
China 5,970
Indonesia 3,980

15 years ago-
http://theodora.com/wfb/wfb_1996.html
Indonesia 3,090
China 2,500

sbane- I don't prefer one over the other. China's property abuses are obviously very unpopular over there. However, some of the examples in this article are pretty dramatic. There is a road project started in 1988 that is still only 1/4 built? A 6 lane highway comes to a halt for at least months because of one person's negotiation? The waste is undeniable and pretty huge.

Many of the same problems plague the US. Why is infrastructure spending not a good economic stimulus? Because it takes so long to get out the door because of bureaucracy. Unpopular transfer payments to the states, or ineffective tax cuts (with no concrete jobs-per-buck ratio), are quicker to get out the door.

[Linus Van Pelt]

Sorry, right you are on the GDP. I quickly looked it up without noticing I was looking at nominal in the one case vs. PPP in the other.

[Sbane]

Well, I meant more that they had a dictatorship nearing the end of its shelf life, which could have led to a bloodbath. But if we're talking strictly the economy, the 1997 currency crisis wasn't caused by lack of infrastructure. And Indonesia still has a higher GDP per capita than China, and its 6.1 % growth in 2008 isn't exactly sluggish, even if much less than China's 9.6% still isn't all that shabby.

I don't deny that the basic point that lack of infrastucture hurts the country - I'm just saying we should keep things in perspective when we're talking about a third-world country that's had a successful transition from dictatorship to democracy.

sbane- I don't prefer one over the other. China's property abuses are obviously very unpopular over there. However, some of the examples in this article are pretty dramatic. There is a road project started in 1988 that is still only 1/4 built? A 6 lane highway comes to a halt for at least months because of one person's negotiation? The waste is undeniable and pretty huge.

Many of the same problems plague the US. Why is infrastructure spending not a good economic stimulus? Because it takes so long to get out the door because of bureaucracy. Unpopular transfer payments to the states, or ineffective tax cuts (with no concrete jobs-per-buck ratio), are quicker to get out the door.

A highway being built since 1988 only 1/4 finished? Wow didn't catch that. So maybe there is something very wrong here. But I was just thinking about the development that is going on in India and why that is also slow, but nothing like a road being built for 20 years. I think in the long run listening to local concerns will pay off.

As for the one guy stopping the project, I can understand that. The government should negotiate more aggressively with him but I certainly understand why he wouldn't want to just give up his property. Maybe the government should even look at building it around his property if possible.

[Beet]

Maybe the government should even look at building it around his property if possible.

Oh definitely, but the point is, if that's realistic option, then they should just do it, and not wait 6 months and going, to do something. This isn't about eminent domain per se as much as it is about governmental effectiveness and decisiveness.

[Bo]

In a sense, it's good in the short run that China is a dictatorship since this allows it to speed up its economic development since decisions are able to be made very quickly. However, it's bad in the long run since democracy is essential for all developed countries.

[2952-0-0]

There is no trade-off between being a democracy and having a robust economy.

For every China or Singapore out there, there are plenty of Burmas or Zimbabwes or Tajikistans.

[Lief 🗽]

In a sense, it's good in the short run that China is a dictatorship since this allows it to speed up its economic development since decisions are able to be made very quickly. However, it's bad in the long run since democracy is essential for all developed countries.

Thus, the best system is a democratic dictatorship.

[phk]

Beet... Economics? really?