Do you believe in the American dream?
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 19, 2024, 05:06:21 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Forum Community
  Forum Community (Moderators: The Dowager Mod, YE, KoopaDaQuick 🇵🇸)
  Do you believe in the American dream?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2]
Poll
Question: Do you believe in the American dream?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 59

Author Topic: Do you believe in the American dream?  (Read 5406 times)
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,891
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2010, 12:40:48 PM »

Yes, despite its numerous defects, this country has proven in the past to be able to change and achieve historical progresses.
Now I'm just waiting for the dream becoming a reality. Sad
Logged
Mint
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,566
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2010, 12:45:19 PM »
« Edited: January 29, 2010, 12:48:58 PM by TOSOS™ »

It seems pretty ignorant and even arrogant to me hearing people deny its existence.  The opportunities you've been given your whole life are envied around the world and you don't even realize they're there.  Even our poor have such great opportunities compared to those in most parts of the world.

Again, as Franzl said saying we're better off than the third world misses the point. No one is disputing that for the majority of america we're much better off than areas like Africa, Latin America or most of Asia. But the reality is we've declined alarmingly since the early '70s. Just look at what's happened with education and jobs. It used to be that people could reasonably expect to work a job during the school year and full time or something in the summer and pay off college. No student loans, just work. And if people weren't academically inclined they could get a job in a trade or manufacturing, often one that was enough to feed a family of maybe 3-6 people. People haven't done that since the '80s pretty much. Now many people live under crippling debt just from student loans (which in effect, have become a giant subsidy for the colleges to keep jacking up prices) and 2 or more people are basically forced to work to sustain what would have been pretty much an average middle class lifestyle in 1973. Wages, vacation time, etc. have all gone way down even as productivity has increased. And that's just one area.
Logged
fezzyfestoon
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,204
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2010, 12:59:34 PM »

Yes, and I completely agree.  But the entire point is that we even have the chance to consider college and go into debt buying cars and TVs and houses.  The American Dream isn't about how much better we have it than other first world countries, it's about everyone being able to have it.  It's about the whole world, not just us and Europe.  The fact that we ignore the rest of the world when making comparisons is what I have a problem with.  Perspective is lacking.  It doesn't matter which other rich places have a similar "dream", the fact that we even have the ability to find ourselves with the problems we have is envious.  We complain about debt and bad jobs yet most of the world would jump at the chance to take that on.  Our bad jobs and ability to coast through college on credit is something that maybe 1% of the world can do.  And we bitch about it when the rest of the world is worried they might not survive long enough to feed their starving children the next day.  So yes, we've slided compared to ourselves, but it's not just about us.  I disagree that that's even the point.
Logged
Mint
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,566
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2010, 01:01:19 PM »

And it's disturbing to see people refuse to acknowledge that out of cheap childish politics.

This has almost nothing to do with my politics, although certainly my solutions in that area are pretty radical. This really has more to do with being tired of americans clinging to dubious, if not totally false, popular conceptions and knee-jerk patriotism when confronted with their short comings rather than acknowledging them and then debating solutions.

Also for the record my parents are pretty much stereotypical examples of the 'dream'.. My mom came over here essentially broke from Colombia after her family got destroyed by medical bills. My dad worked his way through college with jobs, scholarships, etc. - he had no support from his family at all and up until the military total freedom. But that was 20-35 years ago and my father was a professional.  If I sound like I'm repeating liberal talking points (irony) from the comfort of my dorm making these arguments then so be it.
Logged
Mint
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,566
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2010, 01:17:19 PM »

Yes, and I completely agree.  But the entire point is that we even have the chance to consider college and go into debt buying cars and TVs and houses.

For most people going into college, it's not much of a choice. Basically, most middle class or higher jobs require that sort of experience, and even then it's not really enough in a lot of areas. Just look at all the unemployed people (especially out west) with masters or better. The alternatives have been disappearing too, obviously.  And some areas of the country are in fact, effectively third world already or bordering on it.  You only need to examine human development index or OECD data for examples, even if I criticize their biases (to an extent) it's still pretty glaring.

 
Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Anyone can have dreams. That doesn't mean they're reasonable ones. Of course we're not as bad as places like Brazil, South Africa or India (yet) but considering where we started off at that's not saying much.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.


It's not like hunger is exactly foreign in america either now despite how much people talk about obesity. This is a country where 1 out of 9 people are on food stamps (actually, some studies have suggested a link there)... To say nothing of the bankruptcy situation (thanks to that credit) or what's obviously going on with homes right now.
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2010, 01:23:26 PM »

Oh I believe in it, and it isn't just fluff.  A society doesn't come up wish such a vicious, destructive bit of propaganda except for very good reasons, and those reasons are, obviously, that it helps to psychologically enslave the majority in the service of the elite.

The idea that anyone can, that most people could, that you too could, if only you were worthy/worked 'harder'/licked the boot a bit more assiduously, be rewarded with membership in said elite is disgusting power-worshipping nonsense.
Logged
Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]
tsionebreicruoc
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,385
France


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2010, 05:04:04 PM »

Outside of the fact that it would be better to have a synthetic definition of it (...?), yes, yes, this dream existed, and that has been the psychological power of this entity, the US, to have created a dream. And it would be a long historical and contemporary debate I guess to say whether and to which extent this dream found echoes in reality. But now the dream no more exist anyways, and seems to cause problems...

If we assume that humans have a big irrational part that wouldn't be a random that the bigger power in History mostly worked thanks to...a dream.
Logged
Hash
Hashemite
Moderators
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,398
Colombia


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2010, 05:22:21 PM »

Anyone can have dreams. That doesn't mean they're reasonable ones. Of course we're not as bad as places like Brazil, South Africa or India (yet) but considering where we started off at that's not saying much.


Stop using Brazil as an example for a poor sh**tsty country, since it simply isn't true and I find it almost offensive.
Logged
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,772


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2010, 05:34:05 PM »

It's funny, 10 years ago, there was unbounded optimism about the future. They would have scoffed at comparisons to the '70s and '80s as the "bad old days" whereas in this thread it's been treated as the golden ages. What's amazing is how quickly it's all come apart.
Logged
Gren
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 266
Spain


Political Matrix
E: 1.03, S: -2.43

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2010, 05:53:46 PM »
« Edited: January 29, 2010, 06:00:16 PM by Gren »

Sure. Everyone knows America is the land of opportunities.
Logged
k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,753
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2010, 06:05:25 PM »

Lol, no.
Logged
Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,632
Austria


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2010, 11:13:58 PM »

Of course.  If you don't, you either don't understand what it is or childishly refuse to acknowledge it based on its association with conservatism.
Why would I associate the American Dream with conservatism?

Everybody has a different dream.  The American Dream, to me, is simply a blanket term used to describe the various dreams of different Americans.

For example, I believe the American Dream is where we have no poverty and everybody is treated equally and that we give everybody equal opportunities to succeed.  But I also believe the most important facet of the American Dream is community.  Getting to know your neighbors.  Lending a hand when they need it.

I associate the conservative "I got mine Jack, now root hog, or die" reactionary movement to be the biggest opposing force to the American dream.  This sense that we should have contempt for our neighbors.  That you, as an individual, are the only thing that matters.  That society should be stratified so that you only have to deal with those that think like you do... that's the threat to the American Dream, in my opinion.
Logged
J. J.
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,892
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2010, 11:20:31 PM »

Would you care to define it?
Logged
Bo
Rochambeau
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,986
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2010, 11:32:18 PM »


To allow everyone to have the opportunity to become wealthy and prosperous. By everyone, it typically means immigrants, but also includes native-born Americans as well.
Logged
J. J.
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,892
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2010, 06:06:16 PM »


To allow everyone to have the opportunity to become wealthy and prosperous. By everyone, it typically means immigrants, but also includes native-born Americans as well.

Yes.  I would say wealth or prosperity would be the only part of it. 
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 45,990
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2010, 02:46:07 AM »

But when you compare opportunity in America to other industrialized nations, I think America falls short on quite a lot of things.
Yes, and in a way, it's fregging awesome that the rest of the world is catching up to the US in terms of opportunity and liberty.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2010, 12:26:39 PM »

It's funny, 10 years ago, there was unbounded optimism about the future. They would have scoffed at comparisons to the '70s and '80s as the "bad old days" whereas in this thread it's been treated as the golden ages. What's amazing is how quickly it's all come apart.

I don't recall this optimism... outside of a few sh**t-for-brains 'opinion men'.

And oh yeah the whole third-world-is-all-the-same meme must die.
Logged
Franzl
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,254
Germany


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2010, 04:26:39 PM »

But when you compare opportunity in America to other industrialized nations, I think America falls short on quite a lot of things.
Yes, and in a way, it's fregging awesome that the rest of the world is catching up to the US in terms of opportunity and liberty.

lol
Logged
Хahar 🤔
Xahar
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 41,731
Bangladesh


Political Matrix
E: -6.77, S: 0.61

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2010, 12:33:56 AM »

No. The attainment of the conditions that would be its culmination is necessary for entry into America, and these conditions must be attained outside the country.

I don't understand your point Xahar. Would you care to elaborate? 

My father could be outwardly considered an example of this, except that he did everything in Bangladesh. He wouldn't have been able to come to America had he not had the sort of academic accomplishments that he had.
Logged
t_host1
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 820


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2014, 10:30:25 AM »

Yes, despite its numerous defects, this country has proven in the past to be able to change and achieve historical progresses.
Now I'm just waiting for the dream becoming a reality. Sad

 "Waiting" is not your best option available.
Logged
memphis
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,959


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2014, 02:00:58 PM »

A cogent, succinct post by t_host. Wtf?
Logged
Oldiesfreak1854
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,674
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2014, 08:23:07 PM »

Logged
Rooney
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 843
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2014, 12:39:56 AM »

No, since one person's American Dream almost always becomes someone else's nightmare.
Logged
© tweed
Miamiu1027
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,563
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2014, 01:06:47 AM »

I find all aspects of American civil religion to be most abhorrent, flag, anthem, holidays, military worship, mythology and all.  much like pre-Christian Roman state cult, without the explicit polytheism (though George Washington and etc are pretty much treated as divine figures).
Logged
Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
Atlas Politician
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,112
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2014, 02:29:02 AM »

    I seem to have misplaced my copy of the official little red book that says exactly what the American dream is, so put me down for maybe.

     I'm rather proud of me from almost five years ago. Even though I was beginning my college career then, I already see some of the characteristics of the person I am today.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.054 seconds with 14 queries.