Pope Demands Explanation From Irish Bishops

[12th Doctor]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100215/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_ireland_sex_abuse_7



ROME – A top Vatican prelate told Irish bishops at an extraordinary Vatican summit with Pope Benedict XVI Monday they must admit their own blame in cover-ups of generations of sex abuse of minors, or risk losing the faith of Ireland's Catholics.

But the former Dublin altar boy who helped expose the scandal doubted that any real hierarchy housekeeping would result from the two days of talks behind closed doors in the Apostolic Palace.

Benedict's top aide, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, delivered a stinging homily at a Mass before the talks decrying the "particularly abhorrent deeds" of some in the Irish church hierarchy, although he didn't name any names.

Bertone, the Vatican's No. 2 who participated in the summit with 24 bishops from Irish dioceses, likened the crisis to a "most dangerous storm, that which touches the heart of believers, shaking their faith and threatening their ability to trust in God."

To restore faith, "sinners must acknowledge their own blame in the fullness of truth," urged Bertone, the Holy See's secretary of state. He worried that the evil could push faithful toward "discouragement and desperation."

A state report last year found that church leaders in Dublin had spent decades protecting child-abusing priests from the law while many fellow clerics pretended not to see. A separate inquiry documented decades of sexual, physical and psychological abuse or children and teens in Catholic-run schools, workhouses and orphanages.

Bishops kissed the pope in a fraternal gesture of respect before cameras were ushered out. The Vatican won't comment before the summit ends Tuesday nor has it released Benedict's remarks at the sessions, which began in the morning and ran into the evening.

The bishops made themselves unavailable for comment. Irish bishops conference spokesman Martin Long said the bishops had chosen to stay at a guest house within Vatican City's walls so they could better "focus" on the crisis talks.

The delegation's top member, Cardinal Sean Brady, archbishop of Armagh and primate of all Ireland, described the talks as a first step on a journey toward "penitence, renewal and reconciliation."

Bertone called for "humility" from the bishops. But Clogher Bishop Joseph Duffy had already said resignations were not on summit agenda, defying victims' demands that clerics who involved in protecting pedophile priests step down.

That made Andrew Madden, who in 1995 became the first in Ireland to go public with an abuse lawsuit against the church, pessimistic.

"It's clear that most of Ireland's bishops should go, because they conspired in covering up heinous crimes," Madden told The Associated Press in Ireland. "Most of them will cling to their positions regardless of the anguish this causes the victims."

A U.S. lobby of clergy sex abuse victims echoed Madden's lack of expectations.

"Does anyone honestly think that the very same men who ignored and concealed child sex crimes for decades can or will do a sudden and complete 180-degree turnaround and suddenly be part of the solution?" said Barbara Dorris, of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.

In a statement, Dorris said Bertone failed to denounce "a centuries-old, deeply-rooted culture of self-serving secrecy perpetuated by a rigid, ancient, all-male monarchy."

Madden said the pope, in a letter he has promised to direct to the Irish people, must fully and explicitly accept the findings of the two Irish-government ordered probes of how Catholic officials got away with abusing tens of thousands of children since the 1930s in a country where the church was once a pillar of everyday existence.

Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi said the summit will discuss the pope's letter.

Each bishop had several minutes to tell the pope what he thought or knew about the concealment practices.

Victims have been clamoring not only for resignations, but for the pontiff to quickly accept resignations already offered. They insist the Vatican take clear responsibility for what they call a culture of concealment of abuse.

"For the bishops to say that resignations aren't on the agenda just compounds the anger and grief of abuse victims," Madden said.

Several Irish bishops have agreed to resign, including two who stepped down on Christmas Day, but others have flatly refused, including Martin Drennan of Galway, who has insisted he did nothing to endanger children and has rebuffed calls that he step down. Drennan came to the summit.

In the Dublin report, investigators determined that a succession of archbishops and senior aides had compiled confidential files on more than 100 parish priests who had sexually abused children for decades. The files had remained locked in the Dublin archbishop's private vault.

At the summit was the papal envoy in Ireland, Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza, who, along with the pope, victims contend, hid behind "diplomatic protocols" in refusing to respond to letters from Irish investigators about the extent of abuse and cover-up.

The reports follow a campaign by the archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, to confront abuse allegations and deal honestly with the cover-up and victims' suffering.

John Paul II's papacy was stained by an explosion of sex abuse and cover-up scandals in the United States, Australia and other countries.

During pilgrimages to the U.S. and Australia, Benedict has met privately with sex abuse victims. In recent weeks, a new sexual abuse scandal involving Catholic clergy has erupted in Benedict's homeland of Germany.

___

AP reporter Shawn Pogatchnik contributed to this report from Dublin.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I have to wonder if this steady stream of sex-abuse scandals will eventually lead to the Latin Rite abandoning the requirement of priestly celibacy.

[12th Doctor]

I have to wonder if this steady stream of sex-abuse scandals will eventually lead to the Latin Rite abandoning the requirement of priestly celibacy.

Because celibate man obviously equals child molester, right?

[12th Doctor]

As much as I think the Church hierarchy deserved to be whacked for this stuff, when the story is about a Protestant minister, there seems to be way less press.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I have to wonder if this steady stream of sex-abuse scandals will eventually lead to the Latin Rite abandoning the requirement of priestly celibacy.

Because celibate man obviously equals child molester, right?

No, my thinking was that the scandals would add to the already difficult task the Latin Rite has of finding enough people to be priests, so that the Latin Rite would be forced to follow the example of the Eastern Catholic Churches if it wanted to have enough.

[12th Doctor]

I have to wonder if this steady stream of sex-abuse scandals will eventually lead to the Latin Rite abandoning the requirement of priestly celibacy.

Because celibate man obviously equals child molester, right?

No, my thinking was that the scandals would add to the already difficult task the Latin Rite has of finding enough people to be priests, so that the Latin Rite would be forced to follow the example of the Eastern Catholic Churches if it wanted to have enough.

It really won't matter.  It's simple math.  They will have to do something soon to drastically increase the ranks of the priesthood.  The average Catholic priest in the industrial world is now over 50, even with the decline in attendance, there is already a massive shortage.  Lifting the vow of celibacy is a near inevitability.

That argument I buy.  What I don't accept is the notion that celibacy is somehow responsible for the abuse scandals.  You weren't making it, but alot of people do.  Even with all these terrible happenings, the percentage of priests estimated by neutral groups to be involved acts of pedophilia is no higher than that of the average populations.  And the history of boarding schools in all of Britain is replete with acts like this, Catholic of not.  Those are not excuses.  The Church ought to be above that.  But it does offer some perspective.

[Coburn In 2012]

I really respect the pope for doing this.  He seems like a very good man.

[afleitch]

I have to wonder if this steady stream of sex-abuse scandals will eventually lead to the Latin Rite abandoning the requirement of priestly celibacy.

Because celibate man obviously equals child molester, right?

No. Though perhaps your reaction gives a you an brief understanding of how it feels as a gay man to be equated with the same which the Church essentially did through it's initial hystrical reaction by banning homosexuals from the priesthood.

[J. J.]

As much as I think the Church hierarchy deserved to be whacked for this stuff, when the story is about a Protestant minister, there seems to be way less press.

I think part of the problem has been the hierarchical nature of the Catholic Church.  If a parishioner has a problem with his pastor (the priest in a pastoral role), he might talk to his bishop (or someone who works for him, directly).

In a lot of Protestant churches, though not all, the pastor either has a huge degree of autonomy or is independent, perhaps answerable to the congregation eventually.  If a parishioner has a problem with his pastor, there is no one to go to, so they go to the police/courts.

[12th Doctor]

I have to wonder if this steady stream of sex-abuse scandals will eventually lead to the Latin Rite abandoning the requirement of priestly celibacy.

Because celibate man obviously equals child molester, right?

No. Though perhaps your reaction gives a you an brief understanding of how it feels as a gay man to be equated with the same which the Church essentially did through it's initial hystrical reaction by banning homosexuals from the priesthood.

You seem to be confusing the Catholic Church with Rick Santorum.  The Catholic Church does not equate adult homosexual behavior with child molestation... though I can see why you would say that (not being sarcastic, or steel tipped there, I mean that).  But as much as I oppose the efforts of some Catholic bishops to "root out" celibate homosexual males in seminaries, and the larger Church, I think we at least need to be clear about the issue and not make over-exaggerated attacks.

[Gren]

After years ofdoing nothing, the Pope has finally started fighting one of the toughest problems within the Church! Hallelujah!

Needless to say, I support ending whith priestly "celibacy".

I really respect the pope for doing this.  He seems like a very good man.

Really? He actually looks like the devil to me.

 

[12th Doctor]

After years ofdoing nothing, the Pope has finally started fighting one of the toughest problems within the Church! Hallelujah!

Needless to say, I support ending whith priestly "celibacy".

I really respect the pope for doing this.  He seems like a very good man.

Really? He actually looks like the devil to me.

 

After years of the previous regime, that most people loved because it had better PR, and that plays well to the shallow types, like yourself, this Pope, who has only been in office less than 5 years, has aggressively gone after abuses in the Church.

"Celibacy"... asshole.

[Gren]

After years ofdoing nothing, the Pope has finally started fighting one of the toughest problems within the Church! Hallelujah!

Needless to say, I support ending whith priestly "celibacy".

I really respect the pope for doing this.  He seems like a very good man.

Really? He actually looks like the devil to me.

 

After years of the previous regime, that most people loved because it had better PR, and that plays well to the shallow types, like yourself, this Pope, who has only been in office less than 5 years, has aggressively gone after abuses in the Church.

"Celibacy"... asshole.

When you make statements about people you don't know, you take the risk of failing misserably, as you have now. I, the shallow-type boy, was never fooled by Pope John Paul: he was no good, as every other Pope. I feel a lot of respect for local priests, who often have to struggle with a lack of economic resources but still manage to help people who actually need charity to survive; they're true christians, faithful people. But these other, the bishops in Rome, are just a greedy elite!

[Хahar 🤔]

Why is celibacy in scare quotes?

[12th Doctor]

Why is celibacy in scare quotes?

He placed it in quotes, I assume to imply that the vow is loosely followed (which actually isn't true, reliable numbers show that 80 percent of them retain it throughout their lives) and that more often than not this happens where little boys are involved (all estimates show that the pedos make up the same percentage of the priesthood as they do the general population) .

[afleitch]

I have to wonder if this steady stream of sex-abuse scandals will eventually lead to the Latin Rite abandoning the requirement of priestly celibacy.

Because celibate man obviously equals child molester, right?

No. Though perhaps your reaction gives a you an brief understanding of how it feels as a gay man to be equated with the same which the Church essentially did through it's initial hystrical reaction by banning homosexuals from the priesthood.

You seem to be confusing the Catholic Church with Rick Santorum.  The Catholic Church does not equate adult homosexual behavior with child molestation... though I can see why you would say that (not being sarcastic, or steel tipped there, I mean that).  But as much as I oppose the efforts of some Catholic bishops to "root out" celibate homosexual males in seminaries, and the larger Church, I think we at least need to be clear about the issue and not make over-exaggerated attacks.

I don't believe it is over-exaggeration. Archbishop Silvano Tomasi in September last year spoke at the UN on behalf of the Holy See and said that the majority of those who committed abuse should not be considered paedophiles but homosexuals who are inclined towards sex with adolescent males.

The link still goes on and the Vatican still propogates that the contributing factor to sexual abuse is homosexuality.

[J. J.]

I don't believe it is over-exaggeration. Archbishop Silvano Tomasi in September last year spoke at the UN on behalf of the Holy See and said that the majority of those who committed abuse should not be considered paedophiles but homosexuals who are inclined towards sex with adolescent males.

The link still goes on and the Vatican still propogates that the contributing factor to sexual abuse is homosexuality.

I think he might be correct, but from a cultural standpoint.

We live in a culture (Western Culture) where men traditionally married women.  We also had men that were not interested in women, and interested in men.  It was abnormal, culturally, for a man not to be married, and for a man to be attracted to a man.  It was also considered to be a manifestation of sin.

One way to avoid that has been to enter the priesthood.  There is no abnormality with a priest not being married.  There is also, on a spiritual level, to fight the temptation of the "sin."

Now, that doesn't apply to the majority of celibate clergy, but it does some.

The priesthood, for some, becomes a hiding place, from both culture and perceived sin.  The celibacy aspect can attract some gay men, but not a contributing factor to "gayness."

[12th Doctor]

I have to wonder if this steady stream of sex-abuse scandals will eventually lead to the Latin Rite abandoning the requirement of priestly celibacy.

Because celibate man obviously equals child molester, right?

No. Though perhaps your reaction gives a you an brief understanding of how it feels as a gay man to be equated with the same which the Church essentially did through it's initial hystrical reaction by banning homosexuals from the priesthood.

You seem to be confusing the Catholic Church with Rick Santorum.  The Catholic Church does not equate adult homosexual behavior with child molestation... though I can see why you would say that (not being sarcastic, or steel tipped there, I mean that).  But as much as I oppose the efforts of some Catholic bishops to "root out" celibate homosexual males in seminaries, and the larger Church, I think we at least need to be clear about the issue and not make over-exaggerated attacks.

I don't believe it is over-exaggeration. Archbishop Silvano Tomasi in September last year spoke at the UN on behalf of the Holy See and said that the majority of those who committed abuse should not be considered paedophiles but homosexuals who are inclined towards sex with adolescent males.

The link still goes on and the Vatican still propogates that the contributing factor to sexual abuse is homosexuality.

I'm kinda in an "I'm not going to pretend to understand how you feel, but..." mode at the moment, so just let me say this:

Of course I have no idea how upset you feel when things like this are said and done.  But, I know how I feel when I think that the things that people are saying about who I am, or about something with which I identify are unfair, untrue, nasty, whatever.  Usually, when people I know tell me about bad things that have happened to them, I just stay quite.  Not because I don't care, but because I know that anything I say is really just excess wind... designed more to make me feel good that I said something, and rarely what that person really needs to hear... and frankly, I fear that anything I say might have an even worse effect... so the only advice I tend to give is dispassionate advice, for relatively dispassionate problems.

Really, that has nothing to do with this situation, other than to say that yeah, I don't understand how you feel.  And since I go into defensive mode when I hear things that piss me off about things and people I care about, its pretty hypocritical of me to say that you are over-blowing this situation.  I don't know a damn thing about how it makes you feel, and frankly I have no right to interject my opinion on what you should feel.

Obviously, I don't agree with what the Church is up to, in regards to... really much of anything these days; at least the institutional Church... but I certainly don't agree with what they say about homosexuality, and homosexuals.  I don't think they hate gays.  I honestly do not.  I think these are good people, who are struggling with the way they feel about this circumstance.  I think they are locked into a mindset that is not good.  I think they are being misled by bad qualities...

However, I have yet to meet someone with good qualities who did not have bad ones as well.  That's how we become good people, by over-coming our own evils, our own shadow, our own weaknesses... whatever you want to call them.  That's what you have to take in life, the whole person.  You aren't going to find anyone on this planet that you care about who is not going to have some objectionable qualities, or opinions.  You shouldn't stay quite, but you shouldn't allow that to affect how you see the whole person, either.  I have some gay friends who are practicing Catholics.  I have some strait friends who hate the Catholic Church because of its position on this, that, or the other thing.  It pains me to see people thrown out someone, or something, wholesale just because of the few things they don't like.  The goods there... and you don't have to "want it" to be there to see it.

It's kinda unfortunate how few people I will tell that I am a Republican, or that I am Catholic, or whatever, until they have had a chance to know me, because, yeah, I feel a little shame in being a part of two groups with which I have massive disagreements.

And... and maybe this is why I don't do this often, in person... its been 15 minutes and I am honestly blocked... I'm not sure what I want to say.

Everyone wants to do the right thing.  Not to many people really think they are bad, and if they do, they likely have mental problems.  But these are good people, and in spite of this, I believe that they are strive for the real right thing... even if they sometimes fall short, as we all do.  That's how I stick with it.

Anyway, I'm feel for you, even if I don't understand how you must feel.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

The 'Explanation' was a bit crap tbh.

[12th Doctor]

The 'Explanation' was a bit crap tbh.

Oh, certainly.  I expected nothing less.  At least this is another kick in the teeth to people who tend to praise local control over the hand of the big bad Vatican... not that people will notice, because people had their minds completely made up about Benedict before John Paul's body was even cold.