The Imperial Dominion of the South's Legislature

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I made edits, but mostly for clarity. The only real change I made was linking the after-school programs with the tax credit.

[CatoMinor]

Unless anyone has anything positive/negative to say about the bill, or wishes to amend it, it shall be up for vote later today.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I'm still going to be a stickler about the language requirements and say it should be one year. My compromise number is two.

And didn't we agree we'd subsidize continue learning for teachers up to a certain amount at community colleges? I think that's important to specify, just do we're not spending too much money.

I'd also be interested in saying that we'll match private donations for after school activities up to however much money. "It takes a village."

[Donerail]

I'm still going to be a stickler about the language requirements and say it should be one year. My compromise number is two.

And didn't we agree we'd subsidize continue learning for teachers up to a certain amount at community colleges? I think that's important to specify, just do we're not spending too much money.

I'd also be interested in saying that we'll match private donations for after school activities up to however much money. "It takes a village."

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[HagridOfTheDeep]

Hmm. "Whichever is greater?" I'm not too sure about that. That could become a lot of money.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Hmm. "Whichever is greater?" I'm not too sure about that. That could become a lot of money.

     I don't know about in the South, but any public university in California would have $12,000 be less than 75% of yearly college tuition for a non-professional diploma (other than business, professional diplomas are only slightly more). I'd suggest placing an upper limit, though, just in case.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I thought we'd found some data showing that $5,000 was a reasonable amount for yearly tuition?

I'm only bringing this up because my current tuition is about $CAD 7,000, not including textbooks. I'm sure it's different in Atlasia, but I'm at one of the more expensive universities up North here, so I have a hard time believing a run-of-the-mill college in Atlasia would be so much. I'm surprised to hear that $12,000 is less than 75% of the cost of tuition. I could be completely wrong on this though.

Basically, I just want to make sure we're not handing teachers a net profit for getting another degree. Under SJoyce's wording from above, it would seem like a teacher who was in a program that cost $5,000 a year could actually earn a net $7,000 from the government for participating in this program. I don't think we want that. Maybe I'm interpreting something wrong?

[Associate Justice PiT]

I thought we'd found some data showing that $5,000 was a reasonable amount for yearly tuition?

I'm only bringing this up because my current tuition is about $CAD 7,000, not including textbooks. I'm sure it's different in Atlasia, but I'm at one of the more expensive universities up North here, so I have a hard time believing a run-of-the-mill college in Atlasia would be so much. I'm surprised to hear that $12,000 is less than 75% of the cost of tuition. I could be completely wrong on this though.

Basically, I just want to make sure we're not handing teachers a net profit for getting another degree. Under SJoyce's wording from above, it would seem like a teacher who was in a program that cost $5,000 a year could actually earn a net $7,000 from the government for participating in this program. I don't think we want that. Maybe I'm interpreting something wrong?

     Wow, Canadian college is cheap. The only colleges I can think of that would be as cheap as $5,000/year in the U.S. are community colleges, and I don't know if those really have education programs. CSU assuredly does though and is ~$8,000/year (again, I don't know about equivalents in our region). Amend it to be whichever is lesser instead of whichever is greater?

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I think that's a fair enough compromise.

(And I guess the costs depend on your program. I'm just going for a B.A. in history and geography, so it's definitely not costing me as much as it would if I was in commerce or engineering. I'm sure a B.Ed would probably cost a bit more, but I actually haven't checked it out... which is stupid, considering that's what I'll probably go for in a couple years. )

[Associate Justice PiT]

     That's what I meant with the professional degrees aside. I've found that the difference typically isn't that large, though.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

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Okay. Is this even necessary?

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Again, I hate year round schooling. I think private and magnet schools can do whatever they want with their schedule, but making public schools year round is a bit too far.

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Are we sure they will donate their income to education? Seems a bit risky to base an increase in funding on whether people will donate X amount of dollars to a program. And if this tax credit MUST go to education then why have it at all?

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Agreed.

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Agreed.

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Agreed.

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Fine to add, but I don't think there is a shortage of teachers. There is a shortage of GOOD teachers.

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I don't know how realistic that is as I don't know how the teaching profession really works. I have seen teachers aids in grade school but as I moved to high school, a year long intern teacher seems strange. What happens to the students who are taught by them? I'm not sure anyone wants to be a guinnea pig.

I also don't know if parents need to evaluate them. Many of them can be biased and some might not even care, I think leaving the decision up to the school and the people in charge is a better route.

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Shouldn't a teacher be board certified regardless of their degree?

And agreed on the degree subsidization.

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Fine with me, assuming it is affordable.

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Okay I guess. I assume all schools will have a maintenance staff that will be able to make a call on this too.

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Never been a fan of government oversight committees. I like giving the teacher a bit more freedom to choose which textbook they wish to use. Maybe they can recommend books but some teacher's fit a textbook style more than others.

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[/quote]

I would say two years. I don't know if all students in these schools will be able to take three years of something, and it might making graduating much, much harder than it would need to be. I am just being realistic.

[Donerail]

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Okay. Is this even necessary?

That's section 1, which has been disputed and disputed forever; the current text there is a placeholder.

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Again, I hate year round schooling. I think private and magnet schools can do whatever they want with their schedule, but making public schools year round is a bit too far.

This would just cut summer by around two weeks and add on a President's Day and Columbus Day break, not institute year-round schooling.

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Are we sure they will donate their income to education? Seems a bit risky to base an increase in funding on whether people will donate X amount of dollars to a program. And if this tax credit MUST go to education then why have it at all?

It'd be like "if you donate X amount to school Y and have a receipt or whatever to prove it, you get that much money deducted from your taxes". Having a tax credit also gets individuals personally invested in a school and means they're more likely to donate even without the credit, or volunteer or otherwise get involved with the school.

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I don't know how realistic that is as I don't know how the teaching profession really works. I have seen teachers aids in grade school but as I moved to high school, a year long intern teacher seems strange. What happens to the students who are taught by them? I'm not sure anyone wants to be a guinnea pig.

I also don't know if parents need to evaluate them. Many of them can be biased and some might not even care, I think leaving the decision up to the school and the people in charge is a better route.

I don't think parental evaluations were in the original text. I would favor eliminating them. As for the intern teacher, it's basically a way that teachers could start teaching without having a locked-in contract; it makes it easier to simply not hire bad teachers, while being able to realize good teachers and keep them in the business. It'd be just like being taught by a first-year teacher.

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Shouldn't a teacher be board certified regardless of their degree?

I don't think that the majority of teachers are nationally board certified; it's an advanced teaching credential on top of regional teacher licenses, and is typically pursued as it provides a salary bonus or may help in career advancement.

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Never been a fan of government oversight committees. I like giving the teacher a bit more freedom to choose which textbook they wish to use. Maybe they can recommend books but some teacher's fit a textbook style more than others.

It'd be mostly fact-checking books; maybe make it so they basically rank books on their quality/accuracy, and then teachers or teacher's unions or some sort of teacher's group can make a selection for county/statewide purchase?

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I would say two years. I don't know if all students in these schools will be able to take three years of something, and it might making graduating much, much harder than it would need to be. I am just being realistic.

Two is acceptable.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

OK. Eliminate parent evaluations, as parents are not even attending school so why should they evaluate them....?

Reduce to 2 years for language.

I'm fine with the board ranking textbooks but I don't think we need government dictating which textbooks to use. That would slam the textbook industry, which is already out of control mind you, and put some out of business overnight. It would also be a haven for lobbyists/corruption because getting that exclusive "government approval" would be huge and almost create a regional monopoly. We don't need monopolies forming even if it is just for a few years.

And OK on board certification. I don't know anything about it so I'm probably wrong on that front.

[CatoMinor]

I agree with Duke on the foreign languages, but maybe we should make it more of a focus for the elementary schools to teach foreign language. Given how many hispanics live in the region I think we should encourage more young students learn Spanish.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I agree with Duke on the foreign languages, but maybe we should make it more of a focus for the elementary schools to teach foreign language. Given how many hispanics live in the region I think we should encourage more young students learn Spanish.

I started taking a language in the 2nd grade, but I went to private school so I don't know how well that might work in public schools.

The fact of the matter is, learning a new language, especially if you did not grow up speaking it, is difficult for a lot of people who are otherwise more than capable of graduating high school. I was never good at languages, but I was great with numbers. I think learning Spanish is important for the future, yes, and perhaps letting 3rd graders and up learn basic spanish is a good idea. When they get older they can choose which language they wish to take, whether it is continuing with spanish or choosing something else.

The tax structure of this still seems counterintuitive. The donate and we'll give you a tax break still seems risky if we want to have a steady model for funding this program. We don't KNOW how much or who will donate so there's hardly any way to know if these new programs can be funded.

If it works then it's great, but if it fails we are underfunded.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I resign as legislator and urge my successor to support this bill. It's been fun.

[Adam Griffin]

Sorry I've been inactive the past few days. This school bill must be haunted.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Sorry I've been inactive the past few days. This school bill must be haunted.

     Yeah, this is getting pretty bad. Since we have a pretty long queue, maybe we should create a new thread for this bill and discuss other bills in this thread.

[Donerail]

Sorry I've been inactive the past few days. This school bill must be haunted.

     Yeah, this is getting pretty bad. Since we have a pretty long queue, maybe we should create a new thread for this bill and discuss other bills in this thread.

Maybe go to what the ME/NE do and have different threads for different bills, with this being maintained as a general discussion thread?

[CatoMinor]

Yeah, sorry, had school things as well. (like our first football game of the season where we won 54-7!)

Anywho my objection to following the NE/ME model is that we will clog up the board with needless threads and have to dig to find some of the bill if there is enough activity with the various legislatures.

[Adam Griffin]

Yeah, sorry, had school things as well. (like our first football game of the season where we won 54-7!)

Anywho my objection to following the NE/ME model is that we will clog up the board with needless threads and have to dig to find some of the bill if there is enough activity with the various legislatures.

I tend to agree with this. I'd like to see them start using a similar thread style to us.

[Adam Griffin]

In regards to this bill, I'm all for it as long as Section 5 is specified to draw its revenue from new sources and not funneled away from existing public education.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Sorry I've been inactive the past few days. This school bill must be haunted.

     Yeah, this is getting pretty bad. Since we have a pretty long queue, maybe we should create a new thread for this bill and discuss other bills in this thread.

Maybe go to what the ME/NE do and have different threads for different bills, with this being maintained as a general discussion thread?

     I am not fond of such a change. I prefer that the regional Legislature be a slower-paced, more informal body. This bill eats up a ridiculous amount of time, though, such that I think discussing it and something else contemporaneously is nevertheless highly appropriate.

[Zanas]

Hi my fellow lawmakers ! This is my first time holding office, and might be for a short time ! So I'll take the shot to at least participate once in a parliamentary debate.

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Agreed. This can be ruled by collective bargaining, doesn't need an act.

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No problem here. Where I come from, summer break is already only 8-9 weeks.

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That's an original way of putting it. But as it has been noted : either the credit has to be donated to education, and then why not give it ourselves as we collect it ? or the credit is the taxpayer to dispose of, encouraged to give it to education, and then we could be screwed. Nevertheless, it could be a good try, so I'll go for it.

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Yeah, why not.

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I'm clearly not buying that. There can be any contests, rallyes, honors, for the most gifted students, but I fail to see why every student shouldn't have the same schools. It's basically institutionalizing a two-geared education that I'm thinking we should be fighting. You'll have to convince me hard on this one. And maybe explain it to me a bit more, it may be less evil that what I'm getting for now.

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Aye.

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35:1 is already a hell of a class to teach in front of ! Do our finances allow these thresholds to be decreased to 24:1 for core subjects and 30:1 for others ? And is threshold likely to be seldom, often, or nearly always reached ?

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I'd fire the parents also, can't see what they could bring here.
As for the teacher's formation, I think it is widely underestimated, but I guess for now we'll have to take it that way. Is there any period at all dedicated to learning pedagogy ?
Finally, this might surprise you, or not, but I am one who thinks that public servants, as they have certain advantages, should be exemplary workers, and I would review their activity once a year with an academic inspector of some kind, don't know if that function exists here.

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I'll go for that.

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Seems legit.

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I think the Fire department should have a look at the buildings every other year to check fire safeties. But I don't know if that should enter this bill.

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I'm a bit split on that one. Is there a possibility for this board to emit an advice on several textbooks in each subject rather than only one ?

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I really don't like the phrasing "useful foreign language", I think our Legislature and Region would be made fun of by "useless-language-speaking" countries and peoples. We should just not say it that way. No problem to have a list of languages though, as we cannot recruit teachers in virtually every language on Earth...
As to make this a requirement to graduate, I don't know, two years or even three years is not enough to really learn and master the language anyway if you didn't take it before that. I think we should stress on Spanish learning, this could merit even more than three years, and maybe just two years to discover another one of choice.

[Donerail]

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Agreed. This can be ruled by collective bargaining, doesn't need an act.

This is gonna be expanded on.

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That's an original way of putting it. But as it has been noted : either the credit has to be donated to education, and then why not give it ourselves as we collect it ? or the credit is the taxpayer to dispose of, encouraged to give it to education, and then we could be screwed. Nevertheless, it could be a good try, so I'll go for it.

The idea is that if we give people a tax credit for their donations to education, they give their own money to the school rather than the government taking it and funding the school, which makes the people have a stronger connection to the school and possibly be more involved with the school in the future.

5.) Magnet schools (defined as public schools with specialized courses or curricula) shall be established throughout the region as a draw for gifted, talented, or otherwise extraordinary students, in order to challenge these students academically. The Governor's Schools of Virginia shall serve as a model for this system.

I'm clearly not buying that. There can be any contests, rallyes, honors, for the most gifted students, but I fail to see why every student shouldn't have the same schools. It's basically institutionalizing a two-geared education that I'm thinking we should be fighting. You'll have to convince me hard on this one. And maybe explain it to me a bit more, it may be less evil that what I'm getting for now. [/quote]

This provision allows greater specialization and training up the best of the best. Some of them would be, for example, an arts magnet; one might be a science/tech magnet; one a marine/environment one; one a government/international one, that kinda thing. It lets us specialize, and through that specialization provide a higher caliber of education in such a field.

7.) Class size in schools shall not exceed a 25:1 student-teacher ratio for core academic subjects (including science, mathematics, English, foreign language, and social studies); class size shall not exceed a 35:1 student-teacher ratio for teachers not in those subject areas.

35:1 is already a hell of a class to teach in front of ! Do our finances allow these thresholds to be decreased to 24:1 for core subjects and 30:1 for others ? And is threshold likely to be seldom, often, or nearly always reached ?[/quote]

25:1 is the high school norm; I wanted to give more flexibility for elective classes (and more people getting the elective they desire).

8.) Teachers shall first undergo a two-week-long observation period of several classrooms, then a three-month-period as a teacher's aide, then a year-long period as an "intern teacher", during which they shall be treated as a full teacher.

   a.) After finishing the period as an intern teacher, evaluations of the teacher from parents, other teachers, and administrators shall be compiled in order to determine if the teacher should be hired.
   b.) Review of teacher performance shall be performed every five years after date of hiring to determine whether said teacher is still performing to an adequate standard.

I'd fire the parents also, can't see what they could bring here.
As for the teacher's formation, I think it is widely underestimated, but I guess for now we'll have to take it that way. Is there any period at all dedicated to learning pedagogy ?
Finally, this might surprise you, or not, but I am one who thinks that public servants, as they have certain advantages, should be exemplary workers, and I would review their activity once a year with an academic inspector of some kind, don't know if that function exists here.[/quote]

Yeah; we could bring that down to 2-3 years, but having one every year might put on a good deal of financial strain.

11.) Schools shall be reviewed by an engineering contractor in order to assess the integrity of the building upon request of the principal or 40% of teachers; in the event that the school is found to be inadequate infrastructure-wise, steps will be taken to either fix the problems or to create a new building.[/quote]I think the Fire department should have a look at the buildings every other year to check fire safeties. But I don't know if that should enter this bill.[/quote]
Pretty sure that already happens, where the fire marshal comes around and checks school buildings and instructs teachers to take down posters and such if there's too many.

12.) An independent textbook review board, comprised of shall be created to select standards for IDS textbooks and then select the most accurate textbook submitted by a textbook corporation.

   a.) Said board shall be comprised of 35 members; each shall hold a Ph.D in one of seven different fields or other closely related fields, for five experts in each field. These fields shall be: math, physics, chemistry, biology, english, history, and political science.
   b.) A member may only rule on a textbook in that person's field of specialty.

I'm a bit split on that one. Is there a possibility for this board to emit an advice on several textbooks in each subject rather than only one ?[/quote]
Yeah, we were discussing reforming it to make it a review board that would give reviews on the truthiness of books to school districts, who purchase the ones they need.

13.) To graduate high schools, students shall be required to take at least three years of a useful foreign language at any level of their educational career or be able to prove proficiency in at least two languages. Such a language is defined here as: English (for non-English speakers), French, Arabic, Spanish, Portuguese, Russian, German, Italian, Malay, Chinese, Dutch, Persian, Romanian, Serbian, or Swahili (not all languages are available at all schools).

I really don't like the phrasing "useful foreign language", I think our Legislature and Region would be made fun of by "useless-language-speaking" countries and peoples. We should just not say it that way. No problem to have a list of languages though, as we cannot recruit teachers in virtually every language on Earth...
As to make this a requirement to graduate, I don't know, two years or even three years is not enough to really learn and master the language anyway if you didn't take it before that. I think we should stress on Spanish learning, this could merit even more than three years, and maybe just two years to discover another one of choice.
[/quote]

Yeah, change it to "commonly-used languages". I supported the higher years, and languages are typically available as an elective, but having a two-year mandate means there will be language teachers available if needed for additional learning, and kids who aren't good at languages don't have to take 3+ years of it. As for Spanish learning, I dunno; if a kid wants to learn French or Chinese or Italian instead, I say let em.