The Imperial Dominion of the South's Legislature

[Associate Justice PiT]

     So, any thoughts on what to do next?

[Yelnoc]

Well, the whole "Imperial Dirty South" thing is annoying.  Let's think of a bill that pisses dem furr'ners off.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Ah, yes, that was sort of odd. We could always adopt that as a second name if we wanted to. Maybe we could adopt 15 alternate names that all had IDS as their initials.

[John Dibble]

Ah, yes, that was sort of odd. We could always adopt that as a second name if we wanted to.

No. Absolutely not. The whole "Dirty South" thing was completely lacking in class and dignity to begin with. That era is over. It's dead. Keep it that way or I'll make furniture from your bones and coffee mugs from your skulls.

[Yelnoc]

How about a more serious bend for our next piece of legislature?

It would be nice if there was a list somewhere of problems the south is facing that we could address here in the assembly.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     The nice thing about having an active GM is that it provides us stuff to work with. I really miss having Purple State as GM now.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I think this calls for a brainstorming session.

[Yelnoc]

With elections approaching, I would like to remind any citizen of the IDS who wants to run for regional office to declare in the Candidate Declaration Thread.  I almost forgot to declare that I was running for reelection

[Associate Justice PiT]

     The election to the IDS Legislature is over a month away, anyway.

[Yelnoc]

     The election to the IDS Legislature is over a month away, anyway.

Oh, it is?  Could you remind me what a game-time month is again?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     The election to the IDS Legislature is over a month away, anyway.

Oh, it is?  Could you remind me what a game-time month is again?

     Emperor/LoD/AG elections are in even-numbered months, Legislative elections are in odd-numbered months. There is no such thing as a game-time month, if I understand you correctly.

[Yelnoc]

     The election to the IDS Legislature is over a month away, anyway.

Oh, it is?  Could you remind me what a game-time month is again?

     Emperor/LoD/AG elections are in even-numbered months, Legislative elections are in odd-numbered months. There is no such thing as a game-time month, if I understand you correctly.

Oh, I see.  So I don't actually have to run for reelection until November?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     The election to the IDS Legislature is over a month away, anyway.

Oh, it is?  Could you remind me what a game-time month is again?

     Emperor/LoD/AG elections are in even-numbered months, Legislative elections are in odd-numbered months. There is no such thing as a game-time month, if I understand you correctly.

Oh, I see.  So I don't actually have to run for reelection until November?

     Indeed.

[Purple State]

As the proposed new Constitution must be ratified by the regions, I am posting this public service announcement in the threads of the regional legislatures:

Very Important Announcement

The Constitutional Convention is reaching its end, with the final two documents being voted on as we speak.

At this time, delegates and all Atlasians are welcome to offer their thoughts on an amendment to ANY part of the new Constitution, which will be considered all at once in one final amendment vote coming up in the next 48-72 hours. This means that any changes you would like to see to the current document should be offered right now.

Here is the relevant announcement in the Convention thread:

During the next 48 hours, please offer any amendments, as well as debate, that you would like to see considered for any part of the document. This is your last chance to make finishing touches to any of the more controversial changes, including dual-office holding, regional legislatures, the legislative restart, etc.

Feel free to offer opposing variations to amendments as well, which will then be brought up as a package vote.

Here is the relevant links to help you out:

Constitutional Convention thread

Constitutional Convention completed documents page

Please review the completed documents and post here or in the Convention thread with your comments, ideas or amendments. I would be happy to offer well thought out amendments on behalf of non-delegates.

This is a crucial moment in this process, as the next step is a final vote and then presentation to the regions for approval.

Thanks,
~President Purple State

Articles VII and VIII have been passed and the entire proposed Third Constitution is now nearly set. There is now just under 24 hours remaining for the proposal of amendments to any part of this document, before a final vote and presentation to the regions for the ratification process.

Please, I implore all the citizens of Atlasia, read through the completed documents page (linked in the quoted announcement above) and propose any amendments in this thread or in the Constitutional Convention thread (also linked above). Even if you don't know how to word the amendment properly, provide your thoughts and I will help you out.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Eh, at least it's something for us to do.

[Yelnoc]

My Grievances

Article 1, Section 7, Subsection 4 states "No Region may grant any Title of Nobility".  I can see the titles being granted to IDS law makers being considered titles of nobility and would like some assurance that they will not be stripped from us after the ratification of this constitution.

Article 6, Section 1 states "Slavery or involuntary servitude is forbidden in Atlasia, except as punishment for a crime".  This can be taken to mean that slavery is an acceptable punishment to a crime.  It is not, and no provision for it must be allowed in this constitution.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     As Dibble argued, the titles we grant are not titles of nobility, since the title of, say, Emperor confers no powers or privileges on its holder beyond those held by Governors of other regions.

     The clause on slavery & involuntary servitude is essentially identical to the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution, & I imagine identical to its current wording in the Second Constitution. It's not as if including the clause worded as such will suddenly cast thousands of prisoners into bondage.

     With that said, I do think we could take an important stance in favor of civil liberties by eliminating that exception, & would second the suggestion of my colleague Darth Yelnoc that we do so. I merely would not consider its inclusion as such grounds to oppose the ratification of this Constitution.

[Yelnoc]

     As Dibble argued, the titles we grant are not titles of nobility, since the title of, say, Emperor confers no powers or privileges on its holder beyond those held by Governors of other regions.

     The clause on slavery & involuntary servitude is essentially identical to the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution, & I imagine identical to its current wording in the Second Constitution. It's not as if including the clause worded as such will suddenly cast thousands of prisoners into bondage.

     With that said, I do think we could take an important stance in favor of civil liberties by eliminating that exception, & would second the suggestion of my colleague Darth Yelnoc that we do so. I merely would not consider its inclusion as such grounds to oppose the ratification of this Constitution.

I suppose if the first constitutional convention had the same provision on titles of nobility and our titles of office were not considered in the same category then I can let that one drop.

A government that will allow its citizens to be placed in bondage outside of a state penitentiary is not one that has any concern for the rights of its citizens and not one that I would feel comfortable administering Atlasia.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     As Dibble argued, the titles we grant are not titles of nobility, since the title of, say, Emperor confers no powers or privileges on its holder beyond those held by Governors of other regions.

     The clause on slavery & involuntary servitude is essentially identical to the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution, & I imagine identical to its current wording in the Second Constitution. It's not as if including the clause worded as such will suddenly cast thousands of prisoners into bondage.

     With that said, I do think we could take an important stance in favor of civil liberties by eliminating that exception, & would second the suggestion of my colleague Darth Yelnoc that we do so. I merely would not consider its inclusion as such grounds to oppose the ratification of this Constitution.

I suppose if the first constitutional convention had the same provision on titles of nobility and our titles of office were not considered in the same category then I can let that one drop.

A government that will allow its citizens to be placed in bondage outside of a state penitentiary is not one that has any concern for the rights of its citizens and not one that I would feel comfortable administering Atlasia.

     To be fair, that was the argument that Judicial Overlord Dibble put forth. The Supreme Court has never ruled one way or the other on it, though I can't imagine why they would rule differently from what he stated on the matter.

     How about we elaborate it to "Slavery or involuntary servitude is forbidden in Atlasia, except as punishment for a crime, where it may only be administered within a penitentiary established for the purpose of holding convicted criminals"? A suggestion on the wording would be appreciated.

[John Dibble]

How about we elaborate it to "Slavery or involuntary servitude is forbidden in Atlasia, except as punishment for a crime, where it may only be administered within a penitentiary established for the purpose of holding convicted criminals"? A suggestion on the wording would be appreciated.

Wouldn't making it only applicable within the penitentiary take away using people who have been convicted of lower level crimes for doing community service type work like picking up trash on the side of the road?

[Associate Justice PiT]

How about we elaborate it to "Slavery or involuntary servitude is forbidden in Atlasia, except as punishment for a crime, where it may only be administered within a penitentiary established for the purpose of holding convicted criminals"? A suggestion on the wording would be appreciated.

Wouldn't making it only applicable within the penitentiary take away using people who have been convicted of lower level crimes for doing community service type work like picking up trash on the side of the road?

     Well they couldn't be obligated to do community service, but it would exist as an option for them to avoid going to prison, which is what would happen otherwise.

[John Dibble]

How about we elaborate it to "Slavery or involuntary servitude is forbidden in Atlasia, except as punishment for a crime, where it may only be administered within a penitentiary established for the purpose of holding convicted criminals"? A suggestion on the wording would be appreciated.

Wouldn't making it only applicable within the penitentiary take away using people who have been convicted of lower level crimes for doing community service type work like picking up trash on the side of the road?

Well they couldn't be obligated to do community service, but it would exist as an option for them to avoid going to prison, which is what would happen otherwise.

Sometimes low flight risk convicts who are actually in prison are made to do such work. What about them?

[Associate Justice PiT]

How about we elaborate it to "Slavery or involuntary servitude is forbidden in Atlasia, except as punishment for a crime, where it may only be administered within a penitentiary established for the purpose of holding convicted criminals"? A suggestion on the wording would be appreciated.

Wouldn't making it only applicable within the penitentiary take away using people who have been convicted of lower level crimes for doing community service type work like picking up trash on the side of the road?

Well they couldn't be obligated to do community service, but it would exist as an option for them to avoid going to prison, which is what would happen otherwise.

Sometimes low flight risk convicts who are actually in prison are made to do such work. What about them?

     Well my intent, & one that I think Darth Yelnoc agrees with, is that it should be possible to impose involuntary servitude on the convicts who are actually in prison.

[John Dibble]

How about we elaborate it to "Slavery or involuntary servitude is forbidden in Atlasia, except as punishment for a crime, where it may only be administered within a penitentiary established for the purpose of holding convicted criminals"? A suggestion on the wording would be appreciated.

Wouldn't making it only applicable within the penitentiary take away using people who have been convicted of lower level crimes for doing community service type work like picking up trash on the side of the road?

Well they couldn't be obligated to do community service, but it would exist as an option for them to avoid going to prison, which is what would happen otherwise.

Sometimes low flight risk convicts who are actually in prison are made to do such work. What about them?

Well my intent, & one that I think Darth Yelnoc agrees with, is that it should be possible to impose involuntary servitude on the convicts who are actually in prison.

Well, as I said there is the community service punishment, and it isn't always optional, and frankly I think it's more cost effective and practical than prison in many cases. Also, most people would rather have that punishment than go to prison.

I don't think we need to worry about making a person a literal slave in lieu of prison time for a couple of reasons:

1. If the person has committed a crime that warrants a long prison term, then it's not likely anyone would want to have them as a slave anyways because they'd likely consider them dangerous. Really only the state has the resources to watch over any significant number of convicts for use as labor with any degree of safety.
2. The constitutional prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment would probably apply. Community service punishments are measured in hours, not months or years, so anything warranting service in those amounts would likely just come with a prison term instead.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Something that occurred to me is that this convention is only meant to be a consolidation of the current Constitution. If we push for some actual substantive change here, it opens up a can of worms that we ought not open.