Clinton slams Israel on housing announcement
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 03:10:05 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Clinton slams Israel on housing announcement
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3]
Author Topic: Clinton slams Israel on housing announcement  (Read 5187 times)
danny
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,768
Israel


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2010, 06:23:55 PM »


Just confirming my hunch, though it's pretty hard to find religious demographics for the settlements (perhaps, because it is so trivial), Wikipedia claims that according to Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics one of the largest and relatively moderate WB settlement - Maale Adumim, w/ over 30,000 residents - was 99.8% Jewish in 2001. It's not hard to imagine that there were around 60 halachically non-Jewish half-castes married/born to Jews resident there, or a gentile American girlfriend of some youngster, or, perhaps, a half-dozen live-in servants from the Philippines, or whatever. So the number of actual Arabs - of whatever religion - in town must be negligible, if it is positive at all.
That number that Wikipedia uses for Jewish comes from what the Israeli census bureaus calls Jews and others which includes all the examples you gave. The number just for Jews is 97.3 but for Ariel, another settlement city it's 81.5.

Ok, I take it, census is not counting by the Halacha. So, in Maale Adumim there may be about 60 Arabs - upper estimate - out of 30,000 residents. Still, this is an upper estimate - Philippino servants and American evangelical musicians and Hindu girlfriends are not very likely to be included into "Jewish" category by the census, are they?

The bulk of the halachical non-Jews in the settlements are ex-Soviets, who don't qualify by the mother rule, but who were considered (and considered themselves) Jewish all their lives in the ex-USSR.  I still see no evidence of a substantial Israeli Arab settlement.

I'm not arguing that there is a significant amount Arabs in Maale Adumim , the settlements in the west bank don't, but that's mostly because Arabs don't want to live there.But there are more Arabs in East Jerusalem settlements.
I can't find exact numbers but here's an article in Ha'aretz:

 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/936038.html
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2010, 06:54:17 PM »


Just confirming my hunch, though it's pretty hard to find religious demographics for the settlements (perhaps, because it is so trivial), Wikipedia claims that according to Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics one of the largest and relatively moderate WB settlement - Maale Adumim, w/ over 30,000 residents - was 99.8% Jewish in 2001. It's not hard to imagine that there were around 60 halachically non-Jewish half-castes married/born to Jews resident there, or a gentile American girlfriend of some youngster, or, perhaps, a half-dozen live-in servants from the Philippines, or whatever. So the number of actual Arabs - of whatever religion - in town must be negligible, if it is positive at all.
That number that Wikipedia uses for Jewish comes from what the Israeli census bureaus calls Jews and others which includes all the examples you gave. The number just for Jews is 97.3 but for Ariel, another settlement city it's 81.5.

Ok, I take it, census is not counting by the Halacha. So, in Maale Adumim there may be about 60 Arabs - upper estimate - out of 30,000 residents. Still, this is an upper estimate - Philippino servants and American evangelical musicians and Hindu girlfriends are not very likely to be included into "Jewish" category by the census, are they?

The bulk of the halachical non-Jews in the settlements are ex-Soviets, who don't qualify by the mother rule, but who were considered (and considered themselves) Jewish all their lives in the ex-USSR.  I still see no evidence of a substantial Israeli Arab settlement.

I'm not arguing that there is a significant amount Arabs in Maale Adumim , the settlements in the west bank don't, but that's mostly because Arabs don't want to live there.But there are more Arabs in East Jerusalem settlements.
I can't find exact numbers but here's an article in Ha'aretz:

 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/936038.html

Of course they don't want to. Because a) nobody would rent them there and b) they'd feel extremely unwelcome.  They might have a legal right to live there, but exercising that right in practice is a) extremely unpleasant or even dangerous  and b) logistically near impossible. Why else would not - not very rich - Arab citizens of Israel not want to live in fairly cheap bedroom communities close to major population centers such as Ariel or Maale Adumim?

East Jerusalem might be another matter - it's inside what Israel defines as itself and different rules apply, especially when commercial projects go wrong, as Jews are not willing to be moving in. But even there a lot would depend on the particular project. The fact is that, as acknowledged by Israeli courts (and despite their rulings), Arab citizens of Israel are excluded from the bulk of real estate all over Israel. There is nothing remotely resembling equality there.
Logged
milhouse24
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,331
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2010, 07:44:22 PM »


Non-Jewish support for Israel is heavily influence by our oh so unbiased media, which holds up the ADL as the standardbearer for Jewish opinion. I even think that the majority of Evangelical support for Israel is thin, based on false information from the media, political elites, and dispensationalist televangelists. Don't kid yourself, Jewish special interest groups and Jewish Americans in the media have a lot to do with this. There is generally a healthy and robust debate within Israel about their policies, but most people in America wouldn't know that at all. The things you read in Haaretz written by Jews or said by Peace Now activists would bring down a firestorm of accusations of anti-Semetism in the U.S.

I totally agree with this.  We almost never discuss Israeli policy on Palestinian refugees and the Israel govt, unless it is to say that Muslims are bad and Muslims are terrorists.

Most Americans don't realize that Muslims are upset and attacking the USA civilians because of US support for Israel policies.  Americans are led to believe by the media that we have to kill Muslims in Iraq and Afghanastan in order to obtain peace and stop terrorists.  That is completely untrue, the only way to stop Muslim terrorists is to change Israel's policies and create a Palestinian Govt - separate and equal!

Bin Laden never used Israel as a reason for why he implemented 9/11. And honestly, when Truman, Ike, JFK, and Clinton were very tough on Israel, relations with the Arab and Muslim worlds weren't that much better than they are now. So stop writing all this anti-Semitic crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have nothing against Jewish people or the Jewish religion, but the policies of Israel and its govt leaders deserve international debate.  Just like the US foreign policy and the US president.  Israel doesn't care about non-Jews or creating a Palestinian govt.
Logged
danny
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,768
Israel


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2010, 08:17:37 PM »

They don't want to live there because Arabs prefer to live next to other Arabs, just like Jews do. but if an Arab really wanted to live in a Jewish city and was willing to pay the local prices, he wouldn't have much trouble finding a place (even if there would be a few who would refuse).
Anyway, the percent of Arabs in Maale Adumim isn't materially different than Petah Tikvah or Rishon Letzion or the percent of Jews in Um Al Fahm or the percent of both in Jews and Arabs in Kfar Kama (A Circassian village), so this isn't a settlement issue but a general Israeli one.
Logged
Earth
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,548


Political Matrix
E: -9.61, S: -9.83

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2010, 09:38:32 PM »

Bin Laden never used Israel as a reason for why he implemented 9/11. And honestly, when Truman, Ike, JFK, and Clinton were very tough on Israel, relations with the Arab and Muslim worlds weren't that much better than they are now. So stop writing all this anti-Semitic crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really? You're going to accuse them of antisemitism for that post? You have to be insane. 
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.034 seconds with 11 queries.