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Author Topic: Day of Prayer Ruled Unconstitutional  (Read 6664 times)
cinyc
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« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2010, 06:09:42 pm »
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Name one thing.  Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.

Why is "tolerance" made into a virtue with you? Both Dibble and I are libertarians, not liberals; we don't feel the need to refrain from stepping on the toes of your precious special interests. I've noticed that the whining of Christian Dominionists has taken on an increasingly cosmopolitan tone in recent years - it stinks of special pleading. There's no reason to be tolerant towards the dominant group in American society.

We ought to treat religions like competitors in a market; what's good for the goose is good for the gander. What we do not need is the State supporting one or the other and thereby monopolizing the marketplace of ideas.

The state isn't supporting any religion by a national day of prayer any more than it is with Thanksgiving or CHRISTmas. 

A true Libertarian would RESPECT the rights of religious people, not mock them or treat them like second-class citizens.  Liberty includes the liberty to worship the God you want - or not.  Many self-proclaimed libertarians simply don't understand that.
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« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2010, 06:31:03 pm »
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Name one thing.  Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.

Why is "tolerance" made into a virtue with you? Both Dibble and I are libertarians, not liberals; we don't feel the need to refrain from stepping on the toes of your precious special interests. I've noticed that the whining of Christian Dominionists has taken on an increasingly cosmopolitan tone in recent years - it stinks of special pleading. There's no reason to be tolerant towards the dominant group in American society.

We ought to treat religions like competitors in a market; what's good for the goose is good for the gander. What we do not need is the State supporting one or the other and thereby monopolizing the marketplace of ideas.
The state isn't supporting any religion by a national day of prayer any more than it is with Thanksgiving or CHRISTmas. 

A true Libertarian would RESPECT the rights of religious people, not mock them or treat them like second-class citizens.  Liberty includes the liberty to worship the God you want - or not.  Many self-proclaimed libertarians simply don't understand that.
No government should have a national day of prayer because it endorses religion in general. Having a secularized government that doesn't endorse any religion/lack of religion is the ideal. Even if the government's practice of setting days of worship is very unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it is a slap in the face to the non-religious for the government to promote prayer.
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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2010, 06:34:33 pm »
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The state isn't supporting any religion by a national day of prayer any more than it is with Thanksgiving or CHRISTmas. 


Thanksgiving?

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cinyc
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« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2010, 06:34:54 pm »
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Name one thing.  Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.

Why is "tolerance" made into a virtue with you? Both Dibble and I are libertarians, not liberals; we don't feel the need to refrain from stepping on the toes of your precious special interests. I've noticed that the whining of Christian Dominionists has taken on an increasingly cosmopolitan tone in recent years - it stinks of special pleading. There's no reason to be tolerant towards the dominant group in American society.

We ought to treat religions like competitors in a market; what's good for the goose is good for the gander. What we do not need is the State supporting one or the other and thereby monopolizing the marketplace of ideas.
The state isn't supporting any religion by a national day of prayer any more than it is with Thanksgiving or CHRISTmas. 

A true Libertarian would RESPECT the rights of religious people, not mock them or treat them like second-class citizens.  Liberty includes the liberty to worship the God you want - or not.  Many self-proclaimed libertarians simply don't understand that.
No government should have a national day of prayer because it endorses religion in general. Having a secularized government that doesn't endorse any religion/lack of religion is the ideal. Even if the government's practice of setting days of worship is very unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it is a slap in the face to the non-religious for the government to promote prayer.

A secularized government endorses secular humanism and atheism - a LACK OF BELIEF IN GOD - by default.  Inaction IS action.  

It is a slap in the face to religious peoples for the government not to hold optional days of prayer out of respect for those who are religious in this country.  ESPECIALLY when the US government has done so since before the founding of this country.
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« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2010, 06:38:53 pm »
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So, you do not believe that church and state can be separated? That's interesting...
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« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2010, 06:42:55 pm »
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Name one thing.  Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.

Why is "tolerance" made into a virtue with you? Both Dibble and I are libertarians, not liberals; we don't feel the need to refrain from stepping on the toes of your precious special interests. I've noticed that the whining of Christian Dominionists has taken on an increasingly cosmopolitan tone in recent years - it stinks of special pleading. There's no reason to be tolerant towards the dominant group in American society.

We ought to treat religions like competitors in a market; what's good for the goose is good for the gander. What we do not need is the State supporting one or the other and thereby monopolizing the marketplace of ideas.
The state isn't supporting any religion by a national day of prayer any more than it is with Thanksgiving or CHRISTmas. 

A true Libertarian would RESPECT the rights of religious people, not mock them or treat them like second-class citizens.  Liberty includes the liberty to worship the God you want - or not.  Many self-proclaimed libertarians simply don't understand that.
No government should have a national day of prayer because it endorses religion in general. Having a secularized government that doesn't endorse any religion/lack of religion is the ideal. Even if the government's practice of setting days of worship is very unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it is a slap in the face to the non-religious for the government to promote prayer.

A secularized government endorses secular humanism and atheism - a LACK OF BELIEF IN GOD - by default.  Inaction IS action.  

It is a slap in the face to religious peoples for the government not to hold optional days of prayer out of respect for those who are religious in this country.  ESPECIALLY when the US government has done so since before the founding of this country.

Absolute nonsense. Does the government endorse opposition to anything else by failing to have a day celebrating it? (Say, perhaps, Nagorno-Karabakhian independence) No, of course not. Why does religion get special treatment?
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« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2010, 06:44:08 pm »
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Absolute nonsense. Does the government endorse opposition to anything else by failing to have a day celebrating it? (Say, perhaps, Nagorno-Karabakhian independence) No, of course not. Why does religion get special treatment?

Has the government proclaimed Nagorno-Karabajkhian independence or dependence day every year?  No.
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« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2010, 06:49:11 pm »
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So, you do not believe that church and state can be separated? That's interesting...

The phrase "separation of church and state" appear nowhere in the constitution.
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« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2010, 06:49:54 pm »
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 Inaction IS action.  

Exactly my point about you and your ilk: you absolutely love Big Government if it's supporting your values, propping them up, and immunizing them from fair criticism. You're no better than the liberals you lambaste, and are, in fact, quite worse, as you are a majoritarian.
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« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2010, 07:00:16 pm »
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Inaction IS action.  

Exactly my point about you and your ilk: you absolutely love Big Government if it's supporting your values, propping them up, and immunizing them from fair criticism. You're no better than the liberals you lambaste, and are, in fact, quite worse, as you are a majoritarian.

Calling for a national day of prayer doesn't prop up anyone's values or immunize them from criticism.  It is nothing more than a sign of respect for the history and traditions of this country, going back to the days of the founding.   Thanksgiving started as a national day of prayer to give thanks to God (yes GOD) for this country - as proclamations of evil Presidents from Washington to Lincoln to Bush to Obama clearly show.  That's the next thing intolerant atheists like you will try to ban because it doesn't fit your agenda to completely remove religion from the public sphere - something the founders never advocated for or contemplated and isn't even possible, because removing religion from the public sphere is an endorsement of atheism and secular humanism, which are religions in their own rights.  As I said before, the phrase "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the Constitution.

I do not love big government.  Proclaiming a national day of prayer costs practically nothing.  Proclaiming Martin Luther King Day or Independence Day or Black History Month costs a hell of a lot more - yet is perfectly acceptable.  
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« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2010, 07:06:09 pm »
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Calling for a national day of prayer doesn't prop up anyone's values or immunize them from criticism.  It is nothing more than a sign of respect for the history and traditions of this country, going back to the days of the founding.   Thanksgiving started as a national day of prayer to give thanks to God (yes GOD) for this country - as proclamations of evil Presidents from Washington to Lincoln to Bush to Obama clearly show.

So? Who cares about "the traditions of this country"? I certainly don't. What right have you to force such things on me, if I choose not to partake of them?

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That's the next thing intolerant atheists like you will try to ban because it doesn't fit your agenda to completely remove religion from the public sphere - something the founders never advocated for or contemplated and isn't even possible, because removing religion from the public sphere is an endorsement of atheism and secular humanism, which are religions in their own rights.  As I said before, the phrase "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the Constitution.

John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”

Additional quotes from John Adams:
“Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?”

“The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”

“...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”


Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

Jefferson’s “The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom”:
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

From Thomas Jefferson’s Bible:
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

Jefferson’s Notes on Virginia:
“Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?”

Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
“It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

“They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

“I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”

“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.”

“Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.”

“...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry.”


James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Additional quote from James Madison:
“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”


Benjamin Franklin

From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.”

From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”


Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 8–9:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”

From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”

From The Age of Reason:
“What is it the Bible teaches us? — rapine, cruelty, and murder.”

From The Age of Reason:
“Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it — not to terrify but to extirpate.”

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”


Ethan Allen

From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”

Quote
I do not love big government.  Proclaiming a national day of prayer costs practically nothing.  Proclaiming Martin Luther King Day or Independence Day or Black History Month costs a hell of a lot more - yet is perfectly acceptable.  

They're not acceptable to me, either. Get rid of all of them, including Independence Day; the State simply should not be in the business of enforcing any set of values.
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« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2010, 07:19:37 pm »
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From the Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

From George Washington's Thanksgiving Declaration:

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

From John Adams' National Day of Fasting and Prayer Proclamation:

AS the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God; and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety, without which social happiness cannot exist, nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed; and as this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty and of danger, when existing or threatening calamities, the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity are a loud call to repentance and reformation; and as the United States of America are at present placed in a hazardous and afflictive situation, by the unfriendly disposition, conduct and demands of a foreign power, evinced by repeated refusals to receive our messengers of reconciliation and peace, by depredations on our commerce, and the infliction of injuries on very many of our fellow citizens, while engaged in their lawful business on the seas: —Under these considerations it has appeared to me that the duty of imploring the mercy and benediction of Heaven on our country, demands at this time a special attention from its inhabitants.

I HAVE therefore thought it fit to recommend, that Wednesday, the 9th day of May next be observed throughout the United States, as a day of Solemn Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer; That the citizens of these states, abstaining on that day from their customary worldly occupations, offer their devout addresses to the Father of Mercies, agreeably to those forms or methods which they have severally adopted as the most suitable and becoming: That all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before GOD the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation; beseeching him, at the same time, of his infinite Grace, through the Redeemer of the world, freely to remit all our offences, and to incline us, by his holy spirit, to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction; That it be made the subject of particular and earnest supplication, that our country may be protected from all the dangers which threaten it; that our civil and religious privileges may be preserved inviolate, and perpetuated to the latest generations; that our public councils and magistrates may be especially enlightened and directed at this critical period; that the American people may be united in those bonds of amity and mutual confidence, and inspired with that vigor and fortitude by which they have in times past been so highly distinguished, and by which they have obtained such invaluable advantages:

From Abraham Lincoln's Thanksgiving Proclamation:

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.
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« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2010, 07:24:01 pm »
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I have produced thirty quotes from the Framers detailing their opinions on Christianity. You produced two, and another from a man no libertarian believes to deserve to be grouped with the others, all dealing with vague references to a non-specific God. I think I trump you here.
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« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2010, 07:25:37 pm »
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The people who settled the United States were a Christian people. It is foolish to deny our nation's heritage.
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« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2010, 07:27:18 pm »
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The people who settled the United States were a Christian people. It is foolish to deny our nation's heritage.


Benjamin Franklin? Thomas Jefferson? Thomas Paine? I do not deny that the average citizenry, in the main, were Christian. I certainly deny that the Framers were a homogeneous conglomerate of Christians.

It's awfully fishy how suspicious you act when this subject is broached. It's almost like you're selective in your libertarian positions.
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I've seen their ways
Too often for my liking

New worlds to gain
My life is to survive
And be alive
For you


- Jefferson Airplane, "Crown of Creation"

The right to die in Iraq was a right not previously possessed by Americans for twelve long years.  Bush rectified that.
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« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2010, 07:29:28 pm »
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The people who settled the United States were a Christian people. It is foolish to deny our nation's heritage.


Benjamin Franklin? Thomas Jefferson? Thomas Paine? I do not deny that the average citizenry, in the main, were Christian. I certainly deny that the Framers were a homogeneous conglomerate of Christians.

It's awfully fishy how suspicious you act when this subject is broached. It's almost like you're selective in your libertarian positions.

My positions are entirely consistent with my anarchist philosophy.

It is just a fact that religion has played an important role in the lives and communities of many Americans going back to before the nation was even founded.
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« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2010, 07:31:12 pm »
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The people who settled the United States were a Christian people. It is foolish to deny our nation's heritage.


Benjamin Franklin? Thomas Jefferson? Thomas Paine? I do not deny that the average citizenry, in the main, were Christian. I certainly deny that the Framers were a homogeneous conglomerate of Christians.

It's awfully fishy how suspicious you act when this subject is broached. It's almost like you're selective in your libertarian positions.

My positions are entirely consistent with my anarchist philosophy.

It is just a fact that religion has played an important role in the lives and communities of many Americans going back to before the nation was even founded.

Sure. That hardly means anyone ought to be bound by what they did today. Looming, weaving, basket-making and cow-milking were also important in their lives and communities; it hardly means anyone ought to want to preserve those traditions.
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« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2010, 07:33:44 pm »
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The people who settled the United States were a Christian people. It is foolish to deny our nation's heritage.


Benjamin Franklin? Thomas Jefferson? Thomas Paine? I do not deny that the average citizenry, in the main, were Christian. I certainly deny that the Framers were a homogeneous conglomerate of Christians.

It's awfully fishy how suspicious you act when this subject is broached. It's almost like you're selective in your libertarian positions.

My positions are entirely consistent with my anarchist philosophy.

It is just a fact that religion has played an important role in the lives and communities of many Americans going back to before the nation was even founded.

Sure. That hardly means anyone ought to be bound by what they did today. Looming, weaving, basket-making and cow-milking were also important in their lives and communities; it hardly means anyone ought to want to preserve those traditions.

That doesn't follow logically at all. Economic factors are not the same thing as moral and social factors.
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« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2010, 07:34:14 pm »
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I have produced thirty quotes from the Framers detailing their opinions on Christianity. You produced two, and another from a man no libertarian believes to deserve to be grouped with the others, all dealing with vague references to a non-specific God. I think I trump you here.

Once again, a national day of prayer has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY in particular.  It is non-denominational and not  Christians pray.  Jews pray.  Muslims pray.  Buddhists pray.  Hindus pray.  Animists pray.  Ancestor worshipers pray.  Even polytheists and some agnostics and atheists pray.

Some of the Founders were deists.  So what?  That has nothing to do with a national day of prayer.
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« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2010, 07:36:37 pm »
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The people who settled the United States were a Christian people. It is foolish to deny our nation's heritage.


Benjamin Franklin? Thomas Jefferson? Thomas Paine? I do not deny that the average citizenry, in the main, were Christian. I certainly deny that the Framers were a homogeneous conglomerate of Christians.

It's awfully fishy how suspicious you act when this subject is broached. It's almost like you're selective in your libertarian positions.

My positions are entirely consistent with my anarchist philosophy.

It is just a fact that religion has played an important role in the lives and communities of many Americans going back to before the nation was even founded.

Sure. That hardly means anyone ought to be bound by what they did today. Looming, weaving, basket-making and cow-milking were also important in their lives and communities; it hardly means anyone ought to want to preserve those traditions.

That doesn't follow logically at all. Economic factors are not the same thing as moral and social factors.

To the contrary; they're often the same thing - religious elements are often nothing more than economic elements that have been one abstracted from reality.

I have produced thirty quotes from the Framers detailing their opinions on Christianity. You produced two, and another from a man no libertarian believes to deserve to be grouped with the others, all dealing with vague references to a non-specific God. I think I trump you here.

Once again, a national day of prayer has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY in particular.  It is non-denominational and not  Christians pray.  Jews pray.  Muslims pray.  Buddhists pray.  Hindus pray.  Animists pray.  Ancestor worshipers pray.  Even polytheists and some agnostics and atheists pray.

Garbage. You know very well that you intend to get Christianity's foot into the door of the government and thereby prop them both up mutually. I'm onto you, Statist.
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Life is change --
How it differs from the rocks
I've seen their ways
Too often for my liking

New worlds to gain
My life is to survive
And be alive
For you


- Jefferson Airplane, "Crown of Creation"

The right to die in Iraq was a right not previously possessed by Americans for twelve long years.  Bush rectified that.
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« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2010, 07:45:57 pm »
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The people who settled the United States were a Christian people.

So?
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The idea of parodying the preceding Atlasian's postings is laughable, of course, but not for reasons one might expect.
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« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2010, 07:50:06 pm »
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Name one thing.

Easy enough - slavery.

Biblical scripture was used to justify slavery. For instance in the late 1700s Reverend William Graham, an instructor at Liberty Hall Academy, would annually lecture the graduating senior class about the value of slavery and used the Bible as his primary defense for it. For him and many others like him Christianity wasn't meant to change social institutions but rather to convert people and bring them to salvation. Slavery was just another position in which you might become saved. They certainly had quite a bit of scripture to justify this - I'll be glad to tell you exactly which passages in your Bible, if you'd like.

Oh, but it doesn't stop in just using it to justify slavery to their fellow white men. They also used it as a means of keeping the slaves in line. By indoctrinating them into Christianity they could use those passages to encourage slaves to be obedient to their earthly masters in exchange for their promised heavenly reward, as well as implying that disobeying their masters would be perceived by God as disobeying him. Add in the enforced illiteracy and you have it so the slaves can't even read the Bible for themselves, so they could use the dogma without having the slaves able to read from the source of the authority themselves.

Or do you think that the systematic oppression of millions of people is "peaceful and restrained"?

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Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.

My attitude is extremely tolerant. For one thing I don't go around killing them because they don't believe the same things I do. The same can't be said for how Christians have treated non-believers, which often included differing sects of Christianity, for much of their history. Catholics and Protestants were at eachother's throats for quite a while, and in many ways still are.

Quote
It costs NOTHING more to proclaim a day a national day of prayer than it does to proclaim it Martin Luther King Day, Lincoln's Birthday or Hispanic or Womens' History Month.  In fact, those cost more to declare those holidays because government offices are closed.  If I don't like Martin Luther King or Lincoln, or if I'm not Hispanic or a woman why should one cent of my tax dollars be used to encourage days honoring those people or groups?

Because those aren't religious. They are encouraging people to learn about actual historical events and such. However you may have a point on racial and gender preferences on the latter two, which could make it unconstitutional on other grounds.

I wouldn't support National Godlessness Day being government endorsed, even if I might like such a day to exist. Religion and government need to remain separated as possible.

Quote
Atheism IS a religion.  By making the mere mention of other religions in a proclamation taboo, the government is establishing atheism as the state religion.

Atheism is not a religion. What dogma do atheists have that make us a religious order? Let me give you a hint - the answer is none. Atheism is simply the lack of a certain kind of belief. The government also isn't actively encouraging atheism, nor would it constitutionally be allowed to - a National Day of Encouraging Godless Living would be just as unconstitutional as National Prayer Day.

Quote
Quote
Thanksgiving and Christmas are secularized enough that it really isn't necessary to do that.

Who are we giving thanks to?  What's Christmas about?  Those holidays aren't secular at all - especially CHRISTmas.

1. I don't know about you, but I give thanks to my friends and family. They are there for me, providing love and support for me whenever I need it. Thanksgiving is just a good time for me to go visit them, share our thanks for one another, and eat some good food. God doesn't really enter the equation as far as I'm concerned. For the believing members of my family it might, but that's not really a concern.
2. Christmas isn't even originally a Christian holiday. It's origins come from pagan holidays. Read up on your history. Besides, what do Santa Clause, flying reindeer, elves, snowmen, decorated trees, and toys have to do with Jesus? Even the Japanese celebrate Christmas en masse, and only half a percent or so of the population there is Christian. Secularized enough for you?

The nature of holidays change with time. Get over it.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 08:03:50 pm by SE Judicial Overlord John Dibble »Logged

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« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2010, 07:59:55 pm »
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The people who settled the United States were a Christian people.

So?

Christianity is part of our nation's heritage, and of its national character. To deny this is foolish.
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« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2010, 08:03:26 pm »
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Wow, Dibble, LOL at the idea that Christianity was responsible for slavery.

Slavery was practiced around the world for thousands of years without second thoughts. It only became abolished and taboo in the United States by the earnest efforts of good Christian men and women who were inspired by their faith to stand up in favor of abolition.
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« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2010, 08:04:24 pm »
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The people who settled the United States were a Christian people.

So?

Christianity is part of our nation's heritage, and of its national character. To deny this is foolish.

Which has any bearing whatsoever on we, the living -- how, exactly?
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Life is change --
How it differs from the rocks
I've seen their ways
Too often for my liking

New worlds to gain
My life is to survive
And be alive
For you


- Jefferson Airplane, "Crown of Creation"

The right to die in Iraq was a right not previously possessed by Americans for twelve long years.  Bush rectified that.
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