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Lunar
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« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2010, 01:33:34 pm »
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Sam (who is allowed to make threads with the n-word in the title without repercussions),

As you well know since you made this claim to me privately, that's not true at all.
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« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2010, 01:38:56 pm »
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I'm not sure whether I should launch into this. I stand by my opinion that Bgwah does nasty things. It's not based on a random incident 6 years ago, as he claims, but on consistent behaviour where he seeks out weaknesses in others and go to great lengths in order to break them. He has a long record of shockingly vicious personal attacks and disruptive behaviour. The incident 6 years ago is when he created his own army of personal trolls/socks and overran the forum with them. Hamilton is the only one comparable to Bgwah's troll record.

As for this case, there isn't really much to say. 

Someone else reported one of the posts and I deleted it. It was more trolling than hateful, even though it was both.

The other post was in a thread where several posts were reported. It included two lashes from Bgwah, calling someone retarded and someone else petty, but I treated it as one. Again, it was both the trollingness and the personal attack that was the motivator.

Something that should be noted is that Bgwah's personal attacks often tend to be unprovoked. That is, they're not an exasperated end to a discussion but often a first response.  I tend to judge that harder compared to when someone has been provoked by a long period of baiting, etc.

A point that I've reiterated many, many times is that you need to report posts, because I don't read every post made on all the boards I moderate. I also can definitely not answer to standard applied by other moderators on their boards.

Finally, neither I nor any of the other moderators wrote the ToS. Dave did. That he sent the PM indicates that he did not find it odd to see these posts moderated and given that it is his forum I don't get the point of bitching about it. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 10:28:49 pm by Dave Leip »Logged

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Lunar
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« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2010, 01:41:58 pm »
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I assumed the PM was automated?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2010, 02:05:10 pm »
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I assumed the PM was automated?

I suppose that is possible. I did think Dave checked before sending them out, but that might be wrong.

As an aside, I'd also like to note that it is a bit confused to accuse me of bias against Bgwah. I dislike him, yes, but the reasons for my dislike is precisely  the same as for why I would moderate his posts - that he is disruptive, nasty, etc.

I don't have any personal differences with him (he hasn't attacked me beyond stuff like this thread) and I don't have any political differences with him either (I don't honestly know what his political views are beyond social liberalism in general).

I'm not going to do a Bgwah and compile all the posts he's made but given the stuff he's done (photoshopping images of a poster, writing a short story on a poster depicting said poster as Hitler's gay lover, trying to take over the forum with his troll army, etc) and the fact that he has never been even temporary banned, in fact, I can't even recall him ever being on mod review, it's a bit ridiculous that he would claim to be persecuted.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 04:44:05 pm by Dave Leip »Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

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« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2010, 02:08:15 pm »
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This thread has epic written all over it.
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« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2010, 02:13:02 pm »
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lol, bgwah is the best poster here.
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« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2010, 02:17:38 pm »
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Gustaf makes some good points. I do want to read the hitler love story though.
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Lunar
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« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2010, 02:52:17 pm »
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Bgwah, I undid my recorded violation for that post.  It no longer "counts" against you.

I also undid a couple others, which, although they deserved to be deleted considering the personal attack back-n-forth that was ruining the thread, did not unquestionably deserve to be counted as infractions.

If anyone involved has any questions as to which ones I counted and which ones I didn't, please  let me know.

I apologize for not doing this originally.  The personal attacks there were getting out of hand despite me already intervening in that thread, and I dealt with the problem spontaneously.

I am intentionally withholding more direct commentary on the nature of this thread as it would probably be counterproductive.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 03:30:15 pm by Lunar »Logged

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« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2010, 03:12:43 pm »
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Given that bgwah is hardly above reporting posts himself...

To little success. It's frustrating when I report a post where people call each other Nazis and it is deemed acceptable, and then I get in trouble for those posts? Lolz.

Al is another one who is out to get me. He got me for a clearly tongue-in-cheek reply to Lewis. Al has gotten away with being a jerk numerous times, but like Sam (who is allowed to make threads with the n-word in the title without repercussions), he is given a free pass because he is a moderator.

Everyone is out to get you! You have my support!
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« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2010, 07:18:56 pm »
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Dave Leip. Dave Leip. Dave Leip.
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What are you talking about Duke?  Things are great so far.   I do have to cling to God no matter what.  I have nothing against this at all,  but in my class there are 9 blacks and 4 whites.  African Americans are quite prevalent in that part of Tulsa.  I don't mind it at all,  but it is an interesting fact in white Oklahoma.
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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2010, 07:21:41 pm »
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Dave Leip. Dave Leip. Dave Leip.

?

He's aware of this thread.  He's the one who contacted me to let me know how to undo my initial report.  He didn't ask that I do so, or that I give my apology above, he just let me know how if I wanted to (which I indicated I did).

I feel like this is a really minor thing here peeps.  The type of thing to chillax about.

Eraser, you have more substantive criticisms of the moderating system that reach up to most of Dave's personal decisions to ban posters.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 07:24:27 pm by Lunar »Logged

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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2010, 07:25:33 pm »
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Dave Leip. Dave Leip. Dave Leip.

?

He's aware of this thread.  He's the one who contacted me to let me know how to undo my initial report.  He didn't ask that I do so, or that I give my apology above, he just let me know how if I wanted to (which I indicated I did).

I feel like this is a really minor thing here peeps.

I think you've misinterpreted my post. I just felt like posting the words "Dave" and "Leip" three times in a row.
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What are you talking about Duke?  Things are great so far.   I do have to cling to God no matter what.  I have nothing against this at all,  but in my class there are 9 blacks and 4 whites.  African Americans are quite prevalent in that part of Tulsa.  I don't mind it at all,  but it is an interesting fact in white Oklahoma.
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2010, 07:26:52 pm »
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ah.  My bad.  I thought it was an SOS
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« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2010, 07:36:26 pm »
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On the face of it, it seems rather "meticulous" moderation in my irrelevant opinion, but perhaps in the overall context of a thread that got ugly, it might seem more "appropriate." The conundrum  here is that some threads get into pissing contests, and nothing happens, and others do not. Maybe that is all explained by someone pushing the abuse button. For the record, I never push the abuse button; it just isn't my style, but that is just me.  In two extreme cases I did PM a mod about posting content, and the subject posters are no longer with us (and I don't mean to imply that my input was a causative factor in that).

In any event, sometimes perhaps it is best to let two posters try to reach some modus vivendi over time between themselves (sort of the way that happens when you introduce a second pet into your home, and the ensconced pet needs some time to deal with it), and tolerate some mixing it up for a time. In some cases of course, posters just can't get it to work, and then they need some "help."

Again, just my opinion, and in general, I prefer not to second guess the mods. They work hard for nothing, and I don't want to make their job any tougher.  
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Lunar
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« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2010, 07:49:07 pm »
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In any event, sometimes perhaps it is best to let two posters try to reach some modus vivendi over time between themselves (sort of the way that happens when you introduce a second pet into your home, and the ensconced pet needs some time to deal with it), and tolerate some mixing it up for a time. In some cases of course, posters just can't get it to work, and then they need some "help."

Indeed, in some cases, certain posters have sniped viciously at one another (or, on a one way directional street) for years.

We're only human.  Now that I know how to undo a report, posters should feel free to contact me if they feel one is undeserved and I promise to reevaluate it as fairly as I can.  

Earlier today, I ran into a serious personal attack back-n-forth (probably the most antagonistic one I've seen since I became a mod) and just deleted all of the sniping that had nothing to do with the thread.  As I told bgwah, I've previously made a habit of reporting every action I take in an effort for transparency visible to other moderators*, so that there's a paper trail of what I've done and why that I can refer back to...but I've yet to see that, well, matter, to the recipient of the infractions, who usually don't rack up enough to even see a warning (I had wrongly presumed this was one of those cases).  I felt it was better to mark that I had deleted a post, which requires me infracting it, than to not mark it as an infraction (the system counts that as "no action taken" which would be a lie) but delete it anyway.  In the future, I'll handle these in-between posts, that should be deleted but which do not stray so far outside the forum rules that they warrant infractions, more delicately.

Bgwah's post got caught up in the middle of like six posts, three of which were pretty solid personal attacks, and three of which were pretty minor ones, and I just reported each one as I deleted it as I always have for the sake of accuracy.

*And other posters.  When I report a post, it records a copy of the post I delete, which I've often sent a copy of to the original poster in a PM, so that they can resubmit their post without the personal attack/cuss words/whatevsky without having to redo their effort in recreating their post's content.



this is long, not because I think this is a big deal, but because I'm trying to be as authentic and transparent in possible in my role as a moderator.  I've really tried hard, both privately and publicly, to apply a consistent set of standards, and part of that was reporting every post that I acted upon.  It's kind of ironic that that sort of consistency resulted, in this singular incident, in people, privately somewhat, accusing me of applying double standards when my goal was anything but.  People who report posts that I do not infract on my boards even often receive explanations of my decision in a PM, something I'm not aware any other moderator does.  I even sometimes do this in cases where I feel it could be productive & informative in boards outside of my own.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 08:09:37 pm by Lunar »Logged

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« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2010, 07:54:01 pm »
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ah.  My bad.  I thought it was an SOS

Wouldn't an SOS have been Leip-Leip-Leip  Dave-Dave-Dave  Leip-Leip-LeipWink
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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2010, 08:11:43 pm »
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I'm not sure whether I should launch into this. I stand by my opinion that Bgwah is a nasty and despicable person, though. It's not based on a random incident 6 years ago, as he claims, but on consistent behaviour where he seeks out weaknesses in others and go to great lengths in order to break them. He has a long record of shockingly vicious personal attacks and disruptive behaviour. The incident 6 years ago is when he created his own army of personal trolls/socks and overran the forum with them. Hamilton is the only one comparable to Bgwah's troll record.

You say our history is not relevant to your moderating, but I find it hard to believe with posts like this.


Quote
As for this case, there isn't really much to say. 

Someone else reported one of the posts and I deleted it. It was more trolling than hateful, even though it was both.

If that's trolling, then there many posts that you should also delete--many of which have probably been reported--but you don't. Because you're after me. My problem is with your double standard.

Quote
The other post was in a thread where several posts were reported. It included two lashes from Bgwah, calling someone retarded and someone else petty, but I treated it as one. Again, it was both the trollingness and the personal attack that was the motivator.

Um, judging by the PM I received from Dave, it counted as two. Liar.

Quote
Something that should be noted is that Bgwah's personal attacks often tend to be unprovoked. That is, they're not an exasperated end to a discussion but often a first response.  I tend to judge that harder compared to when someone has been provoked by a long period of baiting, etc.

Non-sense. Something always provokes me. You do not know my motives--enough of your lies.


Quote
Finally, neither I nor any of the other moderators wrote the ToS. Dave did. That he sent the PM indicates that he did not find it odd to see these posts moderated and given that it is his forum I don't get the point of bitching about it. 

Dave also said everyone would be given a clean slate when he installed this new system, and based on your behavior I do not feel this is the case. Furthermore, the warnings are automated.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2010, 08:29:28 pm »
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For the record I thought "HatesRights" was a funnier slam. Sad
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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2010, 08:43:39 pm »
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For the record I thought "HatesRights" was a funnier slam. Sad

     Mine was alright, though at least it was a huge improvement over Marokai's slams. Tongue
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2010, 08:54:18 pm »
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In any event, sometimes perhaps it is best to let two posters try to reach some modus vivendi over time between themselves (sort of the way that happens when you introduce a second pet into your home, and the ensconced pet needs some time to deal with it), and tolerate some mixing it up for a time. In some cases of course, posters just can't get it to work, and then they need some "help."

Indeed, in some cases, certain posters have sniped viciously at one another (or, on a one way directional street) for years.

We're only human.  Now that I know how to undo a report, posters should feel free to contact me if they feel one is undeserved and I promise to reevaluate it as fairly as I can.  

Earlier today, I ran into a serious personal attack back-n-forth (probably the most antagonistic one I've seen since I became a mod) and just deleted all of the sniping that had nothing to do with the thread.  As I told bgwah, I've previously made a habit of reporting every action I take in an effort for transparency visible to other moderators*, so that there's a paper trail of what I've done and why that I can refer back to...but I've yet to see that, well, matter, to the recipient of the infractions, who usually don't rack up enough to even see a warning (I had wrongly presumed this was one of those cases).  I felt it was better to mark that I had deleted a post, which requires me infracting it, than to not mark it as an infraction (the system counts that as "no action taken" which would be a lie) but delete it anyway.  In the future, I'll handle these in-between posts, that should be deleted but which do not stray so far outside the forum rules that they warrant infractions, more delicately.

Bgwah's post got caught up in the middle of like six posts, three of which were pretty solid personal attacks, and three of which were pretty minor ones, and I just reported each one as I deleted it as I always have for the sake of accuracy.

*And other posters.  When I report a post, it records a copy of the post I delete, which I've often sent a copy of to the original poster in a PM, so that they can resubmit their post without the personal attack/cuss words/whatevsky without having to redo their effort in recreating their post's content.



this is long, not because I think this is a big deal, but because I'm trying to be as authentic and transparent in possible in my role as a moderator.  I've really tried hard, both privately and publicly, to apply a consistent set of standards, and part of that was reporting every post that I acted upon.  It's kind of ironic that that sort of consistency resulted, in this singular incident, in people, privately somewhat, accusing me of applying double standards when my goal was anything but.  People who report posts that I do not infract on my boards even often receive explanations of my decision in a PM, something I'm not aware any other moderator does.  I even sometimes do this in cases where I feel it could be productive & informative in boards outside of my own.


It only takes three to generate a warning and since Hamilton went on a reporting rampage on me, Bgwah and others in January its not inconceivable that someone would already have one or two that "stuck" and that your's could put them over the top for the automated report. It certainly was the case for me.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 08:56:11 pm by Senator North Carolina Yankee (AFL-CIO-NC) »Logged

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« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2010, 09:20:13 pm »
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I am not quite sure why bgwah is being penalized now when it would have been more appropriate back in the day years ago (before I came here) when he was actually being a troll...  Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2010, 09:40:51 pm »
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Al is another one who is out to get me. He got me for a clearly tongue-in-cheek reply to Lewis. Al has gotten away with being a jerk numerous times, but like Sam (who is allowed to make threads with the n-word in the title without repercussions), he is given a free pass because he is a moderator.

I am given a free pass?  Really? 

I'm four "bad" posts on this forum away from mod review, just fyi.

Besides, you should have been banned years ago, and you know it.  Stop whining.
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« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2010, 09:48:01 pm »
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I want heads to roll for this. Specifically Lunar's.
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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2010, 09:58:07 pm »
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Al is another one who is out to get me. He got me for a clearly tongue-in-cheek reply to Lewis. Al has gotten away with being a jerk numerous times, but like Sam (who is allowed to make threads with the n-word in the title without repercussions), he is given a free pass because he is a moderator.

I am given a free pass?  Really? 

I'm four "bad" posts on this forum away from mod review, just fyi.

Besides, you should have been banned years ago, and you know it.  Stop whining.

Well sorry for my mistake. Tongue

I do think moderators should be held to higher standards.

I actually don't mind you too much (except when you cyber-stroke Al--that's just creepy), but I certainly don't see how you're still a moderator.
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« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2010, 10:47:06 pm »
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If posters started keeping track of posts as offensive as Bgwah's reported posts on the first page, the amount of infractions doled out would be massive. That's pretty undeniable.

We either need to be more lenient or everyone should just start consistently kicking everyone's ass, instead of just posters with enough enemies to report their posts.
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