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Antonio V
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« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2010, 03:21:07 am »
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If posters started keeping track of posts as offensive as Bgwah's reported posts on the first page, the amount of infractions doled out would be massive. That's pretty undeniable.

We either need to be more lenient or everyone should just start consistently kicking everyone's ass, instead of just posters with enough enemies to report their posts.

This exactly.
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HashCAN     americans saw the EP elections and people cringing at Europeans being morons and electing Nazis; so they massively said "NO" and decided to prove that they're still bigger morons



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« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2010, 04:06:57 am »
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If posters started keeping track of posts as offensive as Bgwah's reported posts on the first page, the amount of infractions doled out would be massive. That's pretty undeniable.

We either need to be more lenient or everyone should just start consistently kicking everyone's ass, instead of just posters with enough enemies to report their posts.

This exactly.

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm inconsistent or anything. The moderation that's been going on in the past few months has been a wonderful thing, it's really helped the forum alot. And I don't want any of the mods to think I'm just finding something to whine about, because I like pretty much all the mods even if they're not all perfect. Tongue

But even so, I worry that the forum has an inability to just deal with problem posters and crack down on extreme cases, which is what prompted the cracking down to begin with. Roch posting an entire page of threads in Individual Politics, Hamilton's sock puppetry, JC's general stupidity, and more, what's gone on has been good for the forum, but I'd hate to see us go beyond just dealing with the problem posters and having rules that could infract half the posting population of Atlas.

These are mainly the rules that become a problem:

Some Guidelines (will continue to add to this list)
Personal Attacks: Personal attacks include extraneous words in a post that demean the poster you are debating, such as I disagree, you "*$#" (fill in the blank) or "I'm not sure that you can comprehend this, but ..."  All personal attacks are deleted when reported.  Veiled or subtle attacks will also be deleted when reported.  

Profanity and Vulgarity: Please refrain from using profanity and vulgarity.  Such posts are subject to deletion or modification when reported.

It says "guidelines" sure, but these standards are scarily strict if they were universally applied. It literally says that saying "I don't know if you can comprehend this.." during a debate is an insult that counts for deletion. That's such a sanitized and harmless phrase that if that starts getting people in trouble, we've officially turned into the Nickelodeon message boards.

It's so subjective that it leads to problems like this thread. Especially since the second and third 'infractions' were so silly to count against him if we can all act like adults for a moment and look at them fairly. The 'do you support sharia law' thing was an obvious joke that should be taken in context of Atlasia that have a ton of joking questions like that. (Meeker once jokingly asked a question about the "functional retardation" of a running mate, for instance. No one raised a fuss.) And the second post was silly but by no means worthy of a black mark.

And with all due respect, Gustaf. This is not 2004. I wasn't here, and I don't know what happened, and I don't really care to know anyway, but I think most people have moved on.

The second guideline is just laughable. If profanity is worthy of deletion and a subsequent infraction, I could probably link you to about a half dozen around-the-filter-cursing in the past week that I've come across. I don't report them of course, because I'm not a 7 year old, but Mr. Moderate, Spade, Al, and Useful Idiot I know have done it in the past week or two, not that I at all care. If you're actually interested in doling out infractions for such silly things, links could be provided within a few minutes.

But that's exactly the sort of thing I worry about. No one reports things because we're mature, but the second some poster with a grudge does actually report something that if-you-kind-of-stretch-it-might-cross-the-line, it counts against a perfectly good poster. I'm almost considering starting a huge "possible infractions" thread recounting posts I come across that the school-counselor rules might single out for deletion to show how broad the current rules are.

Some might accuse me of a double standard in saying what I'm about to say, but I would only respond by saying that for two different things there are two different standards; Some posters deserve more moderation than others and should have a shorter leash than other posters who should be able to get away with a little quip here and there.

There's a difference between someone who slights someone with a little insult during a much larger serious debate and someone who makes a post for the sole reason of insulting someone.

There's a difference between someone who makes a tongue-in-cheek comment about something and someone who seriously makes comments like that on a regular basis.

A moderator's subjective standards on what these guidelines may actually be like in a real situation should be limited by making the rules more strictly applied instead of so broad it's up to each mod to decide what they mean.

A sort of "clause" exists in the empty-quoting rule ("you can empty quote once in awhile but if you do it alot you'll get it counted against you") that is sensible. I don't understand why we don't have distinctions and nuances like that in the profanity and "insulting" rules. It makes sense and keeps good posters protected from the occasional coloring out of the lines. Punishments, infractions, bannings, all of these things, should be last resorts used in extreme circumstances. Not because a poster made a play on a poster's name calling them "petty."

Black marks, IMO, should only be doled out if there's a very serious and clearly across the line remark that was made. We shouldn't stretch what the guidelines mean, I think, to suit each mod's style.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 04:16:53 am by A.J. Marokai Blue »Logged

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« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2010, 04:53:35 am »
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Some might accuse me of a double standard in saying what I'm about to say, but I would only respond by saying that for two different things there are two different standards; Some posters deserve more moderation than others and should have a shorter leash than other posters who should be able to get away with a little quip here and there.

There's a difference between someone who slights someone with a little insult during a much larger serious debate and someone who makes a post for the sole reason of insulting someone.

There's a difference between someone who makes a tongue-in-cheek comment about something and someone who seriously makes comments like that on a regular basis.
I agree with your entire post, but this part, to me at least, is the most important.  A person that gives nothing to the community except spam and trolling should be judged "tighter" than a person who gives substance to the community.  Xahar deserves a looser leash than say, Hammy.  I was going to say that anybody that has reported a post, ever is a douchebag but I understand that there may come an occasion when something truly should be reported if it is especially profane and hasn't been noticed by a mod in a day or two. 

So, you're only a douchebag if you report more than one post a year.

(my apologies if a douchebag reports this)
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Antonio V
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« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2010, 05:41:07 am »
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Damn Marokai, you seem to apreciate your job at the Supreme Court since now you draft long and argumented opinions everywhere. Grin
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HashCAN     americans saw the EP elections and people cringing at Europeans being morons and electing Nazis; so they massively said "NO" and decided to prove that they're still bigger morons



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« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2010, 06:29:06 am »
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I want heads to roll for this. Specifically Lunar's.

I'll cut you!
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« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2010, 06:32:12 am »
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Some might accuse me of a double standard in saying what I'm about to say, but I would only respond by saying that for two different things there are two different standards; Some posters deserve more moderation than others and should have a shorter leash than other posters who should be able to get away with a little quip here and there.

There's a difference between someone who slights someone with a little insult during a much larger serious debate and someone who makes a post for the sole reason of insulting someone.

There's a difference between someone who makes a tongue-in-cheek comment about something and someone who seriously makes comments like that on a regular basis.
I agree with your entire post, but this part, to me at least, is the most important.  A person that gives nothing to the community except spam and trolling should be judged "tighter" than a person who gives substance to the community.  Xahar deserves a looser leash than say, Hammy.  I was going to say that anybody that has reported a post, ever is a douchebag but I understand that there may come an occasion when something truly should be reported if it is especially profane and hasn't been noticed by a mod in a day or two. 

So, you're only a douchebag if you report more than one post a year.

(my apologies if a douchebag reports this)

My apologies for reporting you.
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« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2010, 06:38:30 am »
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Nobody with a Dr. Rockso ("I do cocaine!") sig reports posts.
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« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2010, 07:10:17 am »
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Nobody with a Dr. Rockso ("I do cocaine!") sig reports posts.

Foiled again!


Seriously tough, I appreciate that Dave wants the site to pass through as many filters as it can.  And it should.  Edit posts posts down to pass the filter test, sure, but I don't think posters should rack up points unless there are some serious personal invectives being thrown around (like Einzige's entire posting history, for instance).   

Dave/Mods: What, exactly, earns us a point?  Would merely dropping the F-Bomb (as I did when I referenced someone else's post in a thread) be sufficient?  Are we told when we've earned a point, or do we simply find ourselves on mod review one day?  I suppose my lack of clarity on this is a good thing, but it's hard for me to support the point system as is when 1) I don't think it has has ever fully been explained, and 2) it looks like it is being misapplied.  Could someone help me out?
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« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2010, 07:13:23 am »
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Dave/Mods: What, exactly, earns us a point?  Would merely dropping the F-Bomb (as I did when I referenced someone else's post in a thread) be sufficient?

Yes.

Are we told when we've earned a point, or do we simply find ourselves on mod review one day?

You get a warning after four.  Generally, I try and contact non-troll posters -- posters who I feel would be receptive to a gentle prod whom are gathering a couple infractions on my boards.  


 I suppose my lack of clarity on this is a good thing, but it's hard for me to support the point system as is when 1) I don't think it has has ever fully been explained, and 2) it looks like it is being misapplied.  Could someone help me out?

Dave posted a thread explaining this system on this board.  I think it might be stickied somewhere at the top, if you're looking for it Smiley.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 07:15:11 am by Lunar »Logged

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« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2010, 07:39:19 am »
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Dave/Mods: What, exactly, earns us a point?  Would merely dropping the F-Bomb (as I did when I referenced someone else's post in a thread) be sufficient?

Yes.

Are we told when we've earned a point, or do we simply find ourselves on mod review one day?

You get a warning after four.  Generally, I try and contact non-troll posters -- posters who I feel would be receptive to a gentle prod whom are gathering a couple infractions on my boards. 


  I suppose my lack of clarity on this is a good thing, but it's hard for me to support the point system as is when 1) I don't think it has has ever fully been explained, and 2) it looks like it is being misapplied.  Could someone help me out?

Dave posted a thread explaining this system on this board.  I think it might be stickied somewhere at the top, if you're looking for it Smiley.

Interestingly enough, that thread doesn't address the first question I had.  That may be why I posted my thoughts here when they were on my mind.

I suppose it goes without saying that I oppose people being given any points without being told.  Had Inks not edited my aforementioned post, there's a small to large chance that I would have intermittently continued to use colorful language playfully until I got an official citation.
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« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2010, 07:45:02 am »
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Dave/Mods: What, exactly, earns us a point?  Would merely dropping the F-Bomb (as I did when I referenced someone else's post in a thread) be sufficient?

Yes.

Are we told when we've earned a point, or do we simply find ourselves on mod review one day?

You get a warning after four.  Generally, I try and contact non-troll posters -- posters who I feel would be receptive to a gentle prod whom are gathering a couple infractions on my boards.  


 I suppose my lack of clarity on this is a good thing, but it's hard for me to support the point system as is when 1) I don't think it has has ever fully been explained, and 2) it looks like it is being misapplied.  Could someone help me out?

Dave posted a thread explaining this system on this board.  I think it might be stickied somewhere at the top, if you're looking for it Smiley.

Interestingly enough, that thread doesn't address the first question I had.  That may be why I posted my thoughts here when they were on my mind.

I suppose it goes without saying that I oppose people being given any points without being told.  Had Inks not edited my aforementioned post, there's a small to large chance that I would have intermittently continued to use colorful language playfully until I got an official citation.

I guess.  From my standpoint, I don't want to get into arguments with people over a single infraction when they only have one and aren't really on the road to any more.

Some times, even posters who I thought would be receptive to a gentle prod (and in cases where I feel I'm unquestionably on the right, not like things in this thread), who I contact in PMs, start raising all kinds of hell and writing long spiels, accusing me of hypocrisy, oh this moderator another board, whine this, whine that, etc etc.    It's very exhausting, and I try to save it for people who are on the road to more violations.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 07:49:13 am by Lunar »Logged

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« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2010, 08:00:26 am »
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I can appreciate the sentiment (most days, it has to suck to be a mod), but it is unsettling that I didn't know I have at least one point until about thirty minutes ago.

An automated message, a tracker in our profile that lists the violations, something needs to be there so that we know we're racking up points, especially since the question about an expiration date went unanswered.
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« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2010, 08:08:32 am »
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Look, dude.  I don't think you even had an infraction.  I'd have to see the post in question, but I searched the moderation forum for "magic" and "ball" going back 9999 days and didn't see anything of note.  Quoting someone else who uses profanity, if that's what you're talking about, may get your post edited, but it's not going to get you a report.
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« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2010, 08:15:55 am »
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Alright, here's the (edited) post:

When he randomly told Einzige to inform a Tea Party group (that he hoped to speak in front of/attack for their ideals) about jsojourner, he sealed his place in my mind as one of the greats of the forum.

That and when he randomly told Joe to f**k off were both great moments.

FF.

Based on what you said above, it sounds like that would have gotten me a point.
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« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2010, 08:58:04 am »
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ah, that was marked under the mrk name instead of "Magic 8-ball."  Yes, it's been well established here that profanity is against the rules, I'm not sure why you need updates about it honestly.  You get a warning after 4, why isn't that enough?
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« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2010, 10:50:56 am »
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I'm not sure whether I should launch into this. I stand by my opinion that Bgwah is a nasty and despicable person, though. It's not based on a random incident 6 years ago, as he claims, but on consistent behaviour where he seeks out weaknesses in others and go to great lengths in order to break them. He has a long record of shockingly vicious personal attacks and disruptive behaviour. The incident 6 years ago is when he created his own army of personal trolls/socks and overran the forum with them. Hamilton is the only one comparable to Bgwah's troll record.

You say our history is not relevant to your moderating, but I find it hard to believe with posts like this.


Quote
As for this case, there isn't really much to say. 

Someone else reported one of the posts and I deleted it. It was more trolling than hateful, even though it was both.

If that's trolling, then there many posts that you should also delete--many of which have probably been reported--but you don't. Because you're after me. My problem is with your double standard.

Quote
The other post was in a thread where several posts were reported. It included two lashes from Bgwah, calling someone retarded and someone else petty, but I treated it as one. Again, it was both the trollingness and the personal attack that was the motivator.

Um, judging by the PM I received from Dave, it counted as two. Liar.

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Something that should be noted is that Bgwah's personal attacks often tend to be unprovoked. That is, they're not an exasperated end to a discussion but often a first response.  I tend to judge that harder compared to when someone has been provoked by a long period of baiting, etc.

Non-sense. Something always provokes me. You do not know my motives--enough of your lies.


Quote
Finally, neither I nor any of the other moderators wrote the ToS. Dave did. That he sent the PM indicates that he did not find it odd to see these posts moderated and given that it is his forum I don't get the point of bitching about it. 

Dave also said everyone would be given a clean slate when he installed this new system, and based on your behavior I do not feel this is the case. Furthermore, the warnings are automated.

The bolded part was a semi-mistake from me - it did count as one but looking closer it was one post (making two personal attacks against two different posters) so it isn't odd to have treated it as one, obviously. One such post might not have warranted action but I felt the combination did it.

The only substance in the rest of your post seems to be a charge that I'm using a double standard. I'd like to see you back this up in some way. Can you indicate any of these "many" posts that I should have deleted? I think the number of reported posts that I have not deleted or modified is like 2. Or something like that. So you don't really have much of a case here. And the number of posts that I've reported myself and then acted upon is pretty low, at least as a share.

I do refrain from counting a post as a violation if it is a first-time offender who is understandably exasperated with a long-known problem poster. Then I delete the post and PM the poster warning him that further such posting will warrant action.
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« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2010, 11:03:19 am »
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If posters started keeping track of posts as offensive as Bgwah's reported posts on the first page, the amount of infractions doled out would be massive. That's pretty undeniable.

We either need to be more lenient or everyone should just start consistently kicking everyone's ass, instead of just posters with enough enemies to report their posts.

This exactly.

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm inconsistent or anything. The moderation that's been going on in the past few months has been a wonderful thing, it's really helped the forum alot. And I don't want any of the mods to think I'm just finding something to whine about, because I like pretty much all the mods even if they're not all perfect. Tongue

But even so, I worry that the forum has an inability to just deal with problem posters and crack down on extreme cases, which is what prompted the cracking down to begin with. Roch posting an entire page of threads in Individual Politics, Hamilton's sock puppetry, JC's general stupidity, and more, what's gone on has been good for the forum, but I'd hate to see us go beyond just dealing with the problem posters and having rules that could infract half the posting population of Atlas.

These are mainly the rules that become a problem:

Some Guidelines (will continue to add to this list)
Personal Attacks: Personal attacks include extraneous words in a post that demean the poster you are debating, such as I disagree, you "*$#" (fill in the blank) or "I'm not sure that you can comprehend this, but ..."  All personal attacks are deleted when reported.  Veiled or subtle attacks will also be deleted when reported.  

Profanity and Vulgarity: Please refrain from using profanity and vulgarity.  Such posts are subject to deletion or modification when reported.

It says "guidelines" sure, but these standards are scarily strict if they were universally applied. It literally says that saying "I don't know if you can comprehend this.." during a debate is an insult that counts for deletion. That's such a sanitized and harmless phrase that if that starts getting people in trouble, we've officially turned into the Nickelodeon message boards.

It's so subjective that it leads to problems like this thread. Especially since the second and third 'infractions' were so silly to count against him if we can all act like adults for a moment and look at them fairly. The 'do you support sharia law' thing was an obvious joke that should be taken in context of Atlasia that have a ton of joking questions like that. (Meeker once jokingly asked a question about the "functional retardation" of a running mate, for instance. No one raised a fuss.) And the second post was silly but by no means worthy of a black mark.

And with all due respect, Gustaf. This is not 2004. I wasn't here, and I don't know what happened, and I don't really care to know anyway, but I think most people have moved on.

The second guideline is just laughable. If profanity is worthy of deletion and a subsequent infraction, I could probably link you to about a half dozen around-the-filter-cursing in the past week that I've come across. I don't report them of course, because I'm not a 7 year old, but Mr. Moderate, Spade, Al, and Useful Idiot I know have done it in the past week or two, not that I at all care. If you're actually interested in doling out infractions for such silly things, links could be provided within a few minutes.

But that's exactly the sort of thing I worry about. No one reports things because we're mature, but the second some poster with a grudge does actually report something that if-you-kind-of-stretch-it-might-cross-the-line, it counts against a perfectly good poster. I'm almost considering starting a huge "possible infractions" thread recounting posts I come across that the school-counselor rules might single out for deletion to show how broad the current rules are.

Some might accuse me of a double standard in saying what I'm about to say, but I would only respond by saying that for two different things there are two different standards; Some posters deserve more moderation than others and should have a shorter leash than other posters who should be able to get away with a little quip here and there.

There's a difference between someone who slights someone with a little insult during a much larger serious debate and someone who makes a post for the sole reason of insulting someone.

There's a difference between someone who makes a tongue-in-cheek comment about something and someone who seriously makes comments like that on a regular basis.

A moderator's subjective standards on what these guidelines may actually be like in a real situation should be limited by making the rules more strictly applied instead of so broad it's up to each mod to decide what they mean.

A sort of "clause" exists in the empty-quoting rule ("you can empty quote once in awhile but if you do it alot you'll get it counted against you") that is sensible. I don't understand why we don't have distinctions and nuances like that in the profanity and "insulting" rules. It makes sense and keeps good posters protected from the occasional coloring out of the lines. Punishments, infractions, bannings, all of these things, should be last resorts used in extreme circumstances. Not because a poster made a play on a poster's name calling them "petty."

Black marks, IMO, should only be doled out if there's a very serious and clearly across the line remark that was made. We shouldn't stretch what the guidelines mean, I think, to suit each mod's style.

I don't really disagree with your overall points. I do disagree a bit about Bgwah.

I'm not sure if you read my first post, but as I said, this is not about 2004. This is a long, long record of trying to slander and hurt other posters that goes beyond what I've seen from any other poster here. Bgwah is responsible for both the worse trolling incident in the history of the forum (which, admittedly, was a long time ago) and also for some of the worse, imo, personal attacks. He has never been punished in any way. Now he gets a little warning and suddenly he is persecuted and every normal poster should be worried about the Gestapo knocking on their door? I just don't really buy that description, I'm sorry.

Again, this is not "personal" in the traditional sense. I don't personally dislike Bgwah since I know next to nothing about him. I dislike him on principle, because I dislike his type of behaviour. This behaviour has not been directed against me, at least not to any great extent. And except for his atheism I honestly don't know what he thinks about issues. To me his charges of bias is sort of like a burglar accusing the judge of being biased against criminals. It's not as if other posters who done his acts of trolling and personal attacks are fine by me.

Anyway, the current system obviously demands some sense and judgement from the moderators to work. We're not stupid. If a known problem poster decided to report every post his personal enemy has made and which could be said to be over the line we're not going to deal out violations for all of them, obviously. You're always free to question the moderators, of course, and I know I have my enemies who always will, like Einzige or Bgwah. The system can be improved, but you would have to convince Leip and you would not get away from the element of judgement. 

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« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2010, 12:01:24 pm »
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Do you earn points for trolling Dave Leip?
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« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2010, 12:02:01 pm »
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Here's a fantastic, and logical idea: stop post scrubbing and deletion. Seriously, what is going on that people have to act like children, and refashion statements as if they couldn't exist the way they were intended.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 09:24:25 pm by Dave Leip »Logged

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« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2010, 02:00:57 pm »
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Here's a fantastic, and logical idea: stop post scrubbing and deletion. Seriously, what is going on that people have to act like children, and refashion statements as if they couldn't exist the way they were intended.

*applauds*
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 09:24:34 pm by Dave Leip »Logged

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« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2010, 02:11:09 pm »
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Well, Earth, if nothing else you've guaranteed that Dave Leip will see your post.  Maybe he'll have an answer for you.
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Einzige is a poltroon who cowardly turns down duel challenges he should be honor-bound to accept. The Code Duello authorizes you to mock and belittle such a pathetic honorless scoundrel.
Eraserhead
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« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2010, 03:12:04 pm »
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Well, Earth, if nothing else you've guaranteed that Dave Leip will see your post.  Maybe he'll have an answer for you.

Doubtful!
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Lunar
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« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2010, 03:18:49 pm »
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It's his forum and he gets to choose his rules and he did.
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« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2010, 04:40:00 am »
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ah, that was marked under the mrk name instead of "Magic 8-ball."  Yes, it's been well established here that profanity is against the rules, I'm not sure why you need updates about it honestly.  You get a warning after 4, why isn't that enough?

I suppose my response would be that it's a good way to gauge how tight a gripe a particular moderator keeps on his board.  Were I a mod, and I know this is projecting, I would've edited the post and simply sent a warning by pm because I don't have a history of using expletives, and the way I used it was referential, not defamatory.  The mod in question apparently doesn't take context into consideration when doling out points, and that's his prerogative, but it's something that would have been nice to have learned after the fact.  For what it's worth, I'm not arguing that my point should disappear, or that I don't deserve it, or whatever.

And your right, it's not necessary for us to be told when and why we've earned a point, but considering that we have no access to our records - and can hypothetically earn points for things we find to be innocuous and not know it - is it really that unreasonable a request?  What good is a warning if we're not crystal clear as to the reason(s) why we've earned it?
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Lunar
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« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2010, 06:16:56 am »
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Why can't the 4 points serve as a warning?  You get 6 more before anything happens.  You get a warning with the current system Smiley

Personally, I'm inclined to send a PM at 2, not 1, if the case warrants it.  And the reason is time.  I have a finite amount of it every day and I don't want to spend it sending someone a PM who picks up one "point" and having to be the bad guy deal with a horrible back-and-forth exchange justifying it.  I have as little access to your "points" as you do, so it's not something tangible to me either.    The idea of you being able to instantly gauge "how tight a grip a particular moderator keeps on his board" from a single infraction only makes me groan and imagine these endless PM arguments even more.  .

...And yeah, again, it's not news that profanity is against the rules, we've had huge debates and stickied threads etc etc etc.   The reason has never been because of context, but rather because Dave wants this site not to be censored by school internet censors.   Every moderator will edit your post containing profanity, regardless of context, for that reason, should it be reported.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 07:39:45 am by Lunar »Logged

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