Let the great boundary rejig commence

[FreedomFighter]

The only arguments against seemed to be sentimentality; a misguided belief that other, divisive, cultures should be fostered and nurtured; and Welsh nationalism.

To which it could be claimed that the only arguments in favour of your position are consistent only with being a bigoted cretin.

Or the abuse and the arrogance could be dropped and things could be looked at more reasonably. In which case it would seem obvious that attempts to accommodate the Welsh language (so to speak) are quite reasonable. Bilingualism is the order of the day anyway; there are no monoglot communities left now and no prospect of bringing them back. So why get angry?

If you would like to dispute that the lingua franca of Wales south of, say, Aberystwyth and Montgomery, is English, and that most people south of that line barely speak Welsh, I'd like to hear the argument. If it's that we should artificially foster such a half-dead tongue as Welsh through the nomenclature of seats in the House of Commons, there is a case against it that is almost unanswerable.

A majority of people in Carmarthenshire claim to be able to speak Welsh to some level. There are actually only a handful of wards in the county there were a majority don't understand the language at all, and the only one where it's a large majority is Laugharne (which is south of the Landsker). Parts of Carmarthenshire - the Amman Valley especially - are almost as Welsh speaking as Arfon.

And, of course, most people in Wales who don't speak the language have no problems with Welsh place names.

He's just an idiot, ignore him.

[stepney]

The only arguments against seemed to be sentimentality; a misguided belief that other, divisive, cultures should be fostered and nurtured; and Welsh nationalism.

To which it could be claimed that the only arguments in favour of your position are consistent only with being a bigoted cretin.

Or the abuse and the arrogance could be dropped and things could be looked at more reasonably. In which case it would seem obvious that attempts to accommodate the Welsh language (so to speak) are quite reasonable. Bilingualism is the order of the day anyway; there are no monoglot communities left now and no prospect of bringing them back. So why get angry?

Yes, yes. Perhaps only a socialist isolated from realism could in one paragraph accuses his interlocutor of being a 'bigoted cretin' (with a friend below to call me an 'idiot') and then in the next breath make an accusation against the same person of 'abusive arrogance'.

The point I have made here, and in another place where doktorb, you and I are all members, is that Welsh, were it not for public subsidy, would die. And that as such, I believe, public subsidy should be withdrawn and that it should die its natural death. Multiculturalism and polyglotism may be prayed in Welsh's aid, but you forget that I live in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, where multiculturalism is a canard, a cover word for divisiveness and the religious and ethnic supremacism of a minority group.

I would like the Bangladeshis of the East End to jump into the melting pot with the rest of us; why should I not apply that to the Welsh without being accused of bigotry?

Bringing this subject back to the topic at hand, the seat based on Carmarthen has been called Carmarthen (or Carmarthen Boroughs, or West Carmarthenshire) since Wales got Parliamentary representation - for any passing Americans on this thread that's twice as long as they've been a nation. Why, now, should that be changed? Why should a public body be entrenching and furthering the divisiveness of a non-English tongue when it should be supporting integration? To bring the subject home to me, it is as if, after roughly 130 years of seats in northern Tower Hamlets named after the local communities, the English Commission should elect to rename Bethnal Green and Bow 'Banglatown' for no good reason but to 'recognise' or 'celebrate' diversity or some such.

Are you capable of seeing my point, or is it that all Tories are arrogant bigots and cretins and idiots in your eyes, or what?

And, of course, most people in Wales who don't speak the language have no problems with Welsh place names.

Whereas all the people in Wales speak English and none of them have any problem with English place names, particularly the ones that have been established for half a milennium.

[Vasall des Midas]

The only arguments against seemed to be sentimentality; a misguided belief that other, divisive, cultures should be fostered and nurtured; and Welsh nationalism.

To which it could be claimed that the only arguments in favour of your position are consistent only with being a bigoted cretin.

Or the abuse and the arrogance could be dropped and things could be looked at more reasonably. In which case it would seem obvious that attempts to accommodate the Welsh language (so to speak) are quite reasonable. Bilingualism is the order of the day anyway; there are no monoglot communities left now and no prospect of bringing them back. So why get angry?

Yes, yes. Perhaps only a socialist isolated from realism could in one paragraph accuses his interlocutor of being a 'bigoted cretin' (with a friend below to call me an 'idiot') and then in the next breath make an accusation against the same person of 'abusive arrogance'.

FreedomFighter is just an idiot (or more likely, just a troll), ignore him. You also maybe ought to go read that sentence with "abusive arrogance" in it again, you seem to have misunderstood it.

Along with the terms "multiculturalism" and "integration", of course. Oh well.

[ObserverIE]

Bringing this subject back to the topic at hand, the seat based on Carmarthen has been called Carmarthen (or Carmarthen Boroughs, or West Carmarthenshire) since Wales got Parliamentary representation - for any passing Americans on this thread that's twice as long as they've been a nation.

If we're going to start on the antiquity line, Welsh was in use in Caerfyrddin/Carmarthen long before the Anglo-Saxons learned the skill of long-distance sailing and left the bogs of northern Germany and Jutland for greener pastures. Get over it.

[ObserverIE]

Are you capable of seeing my point, or is it that all Tories are arrogant bigots and cretins and idiots in your eyes, or what?

"All"? No.

At least one? Definitely.

[doktorb]

My dear Stepney

The point you made comparing the changes with TH and Wales is very well made (and I genuinely mean that!). I am not going to pick holes, there's a fair amount of chin-stroke content you've provided

[Vasall des Midas]

There is no logic at all in demanding immigrants to Tower Hamlets learn English but the natives of Britain learn the language of the English immigrants.

Oh wait. A Tory in Stepney. Odds are he arrived long after the Bangladeshis. And suddenly it all made sense. (Also, the renaming would have to be Bethnal Green aur Bow to be at all parallel. Well "aur" is Hindi/Urdu, not Bangla... from some wikiing it *seems* Bangla would be "eor".)

[Bro-mentum]

'Isolated from realism'

Lol, I like this phrase. I'm going to use it put down people who are lack interest in the works of Gustave Courbet more often..

[Vasall des Midas]

Who was, of course, persecuted for his politics.

[asexual trans victimologist]

Stepney, that rant was almost Daily Mail esque!  I ticked off the bingo card at least six old favourites....

My dear Doktorb, the fact that it is "almost Daily Mail esque", as George Orwell almost said, doesn't mean it's wrong. My own opinions on Welsh were expressed on another place a while back. The only arguments against seemed to be sentimentality; a misguided belief that other, divisive, cultures should be fostered and nurtured; and Welsh nationalism.

If you would like to dispute that the lingua franca of Wales south of, say, Aberystwyth and Montgomery, is English, and that most people south of that line barely speak Welsh, I'd like to hear the argument. If it's that we should artificially foster such a half-dead tongue as Welsh through the nomenclature of seats in the House of Commons, there is a case against it that is almost unanswerable.

Linguistic diversity, like many if not most types of diversity, is an intrinsic and positive good.

[Χahar]

As a Bangladeshi, I feel like I should be offended by this.

[Hashemite]

I didn't read this thread, but I read stepney's rant, and as a Breton, I feel directly offended and naturally disgusted. But, of course, being French and all, I'm quite used to this kind of rhetoric in favour of homogeneity and centralism.

[Vasall des Midas]

As a Bangladeshi, I feel like I should be offended by this.

So what is Bangla for "Bethnal Green and Bow"?

[Χahar]

"Bethnal" appears to derive from "blithe hall", so...I would have to think about it.

[ObserverIE]

"Bethnal" appears to derive from "blithe hall", so...I would have to think about it.

Oh, I wouldn't bother with an etymological approach. It doesn't demonstrate the proper spirit of the British empire.

Just transliterate the English pronunciation (or something approximating it) into Bengali and then transliterate it back again. Better still, choose Bengali words which sound similar even if the meaning is completely different. There are plenty of Leamhchoills (elm wood) in Ireland which got "translated" to Longfield, or Fuarchoills (cold wood) which got transformed into Forkhill or Forthill.

[Χahar]

My own last name has a dozen different spellings, and the one that I happen to have inherited isn't remotely intuitive. I certainly don't blame everyone for spelling it wrong. Thanks, Empire!

[doktorb]

The Bengali language Wikipedia tells me "বেথনাল গ্রিন" which Google Translate tells me is "Bēthanāla grina"


There is no Bengali language Wiki page for "Bow".

[doktorb]

Ditto "টাওয়ার হ্যামলেট্‌স" / "Ṭā'ōẏāra hyāmalēṭsa"

[doktorb]

The Boundary Commission for Scotland will reveal its revised recommendations in September
The ditto ditto for England will ditto ditto in October.

[Gary J]

There has been a major development in British politics today, even though it does not seem to have been generally recognised yet, which may prevent the current boundary reviews taking effect for the 2015 general election.

Lib Dem leader, Nick Clegg, has announced that House of Lords reform is being dropped due to backbench Conservative opposition (and Labour opportunism). He regards this as a breach of the coalition agreement and will ask Liberal Democrat MPs (including Ministers) to vote against the draft Orders in Council, which need to be passed to give legal effect to the boundary reviews when finalised by the boundary commissions.

Without Liberal Democrat support there will not be a Commons majority for the boundary changes, so the next general election will have to be contested for the existing 650 seats and not the re-drawn 600.

The boundary commissions will continue with the review. They are due to report by October 2013. The vote in Parliament is likely to be in late 2013 or early 2014.

[You kip if you want to...]

60 pages of pointlessness now really.

[Leftbehind]

...and yet it feels so good!

Actually, they're not dead and buried until the vote on them is defeated.

[doktorb]

I'm fairly deflated about this

House of Lords reform can wait. The boundary changes can't. Clegg's stance is disappointing.

[Gary J]

The information I have seen, is that the Boundary Commission for England will ignore the political activity and will continue with the review.

The four national commissions are obliged to carry out reviews, as required by law. What the government and Parliament does with the eventual reports, is not a matter for the commissions.

The present political crisis may be compromised, before the parliamentary vote needs to be taken.  I agree the review is not definitively dead unless and until the changes are voted down.

[You kip if you want to...]

I'm fairly deflated about this

House of Lords reform can wait. The boundary changes can't. Clegg's stance is disappointing.

To be fair, the proposed boundaries were dire and the Lords plans were dire. Win-win. Although, I would've voted yes in any referendum on the Lords stuff.