A sloution to illegal immigration- $5 for a head of cabbage

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

You don´t have to have $5 for 1lb of cabbage. Just have the production moved down to Mexico and have it imported, it will be much cheaper.

Yes, of course, cutting agricultural subsidies would dramatically cut illegal immigration. As a side benefit, it would also help a lot Mexican agricultural sector. I am all in favor.

Agricultural subsidies have minimal influence on immigration.  The crops that get subsidies are mainly those with very little labor input required for production.  Eliminating subsidies would increase demand for fruits and vegetables since grains and meat would increase in price.  That increased demand would lead to an increased demand for agricultural labor.  So it would be quite possible that cutting subsidies would lead to a modest increase in illegal immigration.

[ag]

You don´t have to have $5 for 1lb of cabbage. Just have the production moved down to Mexico and have it imported, it will be much cheaper.

Yes, of course, cutting agricultural subsidies would dramatically cut illegal immigration. As a side benefit, it would also help a lot Mexican agricultural sector. I am all in favor.

Agricultural subsidies have minimal influence on immigration.  The crops that get subsidies are mainly those with very little labor input required for production.  Eliminating subsidies would increase demand for fruits and vegetables since grains and meat would increase in price.  That increased demand would lead to an increased demand for agricultural labor.  So it would be quite possible that cutting subsidies would lead to a modest increase in illegal immigration.

Fruit and vegetables are already now shifting down south: that's where Mexican growth has been ever since NAFTA. So, increased demand for fruit and vegetables would increase Mexican production, while quit probably decreasing American Yes, demand for cheap labor would increase: in Mexico. In fact, if the objective is to make it unprofitable to hire illegal migrants, impose a $1 tax on each pound of tomatos grown in the US. Bingo!

[President Mitt]

The water counts as a border. We have illegals from Cuba and Haiti.

It's not illegal when Cubans do it.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

First off, the premise of the thread is ridiculous. You wouldn't pay $5 for a head of cabbage. When JFK/LBJ wanted to close down the bracero program the Tomato industry claimed Tomatos would see a dramatic rise in prices. Ten years afterwards the price of Tomatos actually fell. Why? Because taking away the cheap labor, that had retarded innovation by distorting the labor market prices making it cheaper to run innefficiently then to invest in R&D and new technology, led them to actually focus on raising productivity.

[fezzyfestoon]

A real solution would be to legalize marijuana.  Marijuana is the main source of income for border cartels and gangs in the US.  Without the support of them, there is very little benefit to border smugglers to helping others across the border.  They help them so they can get their drugs across and without help it's almost impossible to make it.  Long story short of course.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

A real solution would be to legalize marijuana.  Marijuana is the main source of income for border cartels and gangs in the US.  Without the support of them, there is very little benefit to border smugglers to helping others across the border.  They help them so they can get their drugs across and without help it's almost impossible to make it.  Long story short of course.

They also grow it in our national parks so that they don't have to smuggle it across the border.

http://www.jointogether.org/news/headlines/inthenews/2003/national-park-service-by.html

[RRB]

Drugs are probably the main reason for violence and crime, but simply looking for a job is the bulk of them.  

That's right, we are not a Mexican border state, but some right wing nut is proposing a simular bill here in MI when it will be vetoed anyway.  The right loves to crack down on brown people and this is the perfect excuse to energize their racist base, even if the bill goes nowhere.

I know people who get mad at the ATM because it askes if you want Spanish or English.  Just press English you nutballs, it's no big deal.

[War on Want]

First off, the premise of the thread is ridiculous. You wouldn't pay $5 for a head of cabbage. When JFK/LBJ wanted to close down the bracero program the Tomato industry claimed Tomatos would see a dramatic rise in prices. Ten years afterwards the price of Tomatos actually fell. Why? Because taking away the cheap labor, that had retarded innovation by distorting the labor market prices making it cheaper to run innefficiently then to invest in R&D and new technology, led them to actually focus on raising productivity.

Whether you realize it or not, this is a good argument for people who support "amnesty". I've seen it used and I use it myself. I know what your retort will be but I don't see why we couldn't have some sort of amnesty and at the same time crack down hard on border security, cut some deals with Mexico, legalize weed, and all that to reduce illegal immigration, which will come down naturally anyways.

[??????????]

A real solution would be to legalize marijuana.  Marijuana is the main source of income for border cartels and gangs in the US.  Without the support of them, there is very little benefit to border smugglers to helping others across the border.  They help them so they can get their drugs across and without help it's almost impossible to make it.  Long story short of course.

I agree with that but the problem is they'd probably just move onto something else that is illegal to smuggle in.

[??????????]

I don't care if there are 100,000,000 Mexicans here if there is work for them, but we HAVE to close the border.

I still haven't heard a good case to support this idea.

I haven't heard a good argument opposing it.

Seriously, instead of absolute open borders, if a prosepective immigrant can pass a criminal and medical background check (as I believe is already done for visa applicants), and they have a confirmed job waiting for them, then what is the problem with at least multiplying the visas granted by 5 or 10 fold (a complete removal would be too hard to manage, I think). Just strictly apply minimum wage, health and safety and other workplace protections to them to avoid exploitation and collapse of wage standards.

It's simplistic sounding to me, but no one's yet adaquately explained why it wouldn't work.

Why not several Ellis Island type compounds along the Mexican borders taking in a controlled amount of immigrants? I don't see why that wouldn't work.

[fezzyfestoon]

A real solution would be to legalize marijuana.  Marijuana is the main source of income for border cartels and gangs in the US.  Without the support of them, there is very little benefit to border smugglers to helping others across the border.  They help them so they can get their drugs across and without help it's almost impossible to make it.  Long story short of course.

I agree with that but the problem is they'd probably just move onto something else that is illegal to smuggle in.

Very true, it would definitely be a temporary fix.  The good news is that the odds of something like cocaine growing in popularity to compete with marijuana are negligible.  Cutting them off from marijuana would likely prevent them from ever gaining as much power as they have now as a result of drugs.  If they somehow did it would take years, maybe decades.

[??????????]

A real solution would be to legalize marijuana.  Marijuana is the main source of income for border cartels and gangs in the US.  Without the support of them, there is very little benefit to border smugglers to helping others across the border.  They help them so they can get their drugs across and without help it's almost impossible to make it.  Long story short of course.

I agree with that but the problem is they'd probably just move onto something else that is illegal to smuggle in.

Very true, it would definitely be a temporary fix.  The good news is that the odds of something like cocaine growing in popularity to compete with marijuana are negligible.  Cutting them off from marijuana would likely prevent them from ever gaining as much power as they have now as a result of drugs.  If they somehow did it would take years, maybe decades.

Meth would be the next obvious choice. Meth labs lining the US/Mexican border are a scary thought. They probably already exist though, I'm no expert on drug distribution.

[fezzyfestoon]

Ah, you're right.  I didn't even think of meth.  That could be a huge problem.  I don't know much about how meth works though, so I have no idea what might happen.

[dead0man]

I've never understood the allure of meth.  It's made from nasty sh**t.  It's harder on the body than heroin or alcohol.  I've never done it, but the high can't be that good can it?

[??????????]

I've never understood the allure of meth.  It's made from nasty sh**t.  It's harder on the body than heroin or alcohol.  I've never done it, but the high can't be that good can it?

Nazi soldiers marched endlessly while on the stuff.

[dead0man]

Amphetamine seems to do the trick for our Air Force pilots.  Much healthier....relatively speaking of course.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

First off, the premise of the thread is ridiculous. You wouldn't pay $5 for a head of cabbage. When JFK/LBJ wanted to close down the bracero program the Tomato industry claimed Tomatos would see a dramatic rise in prices. Ten years afterwards the price of Tomatos actually fell. Why? Because taking away the cheap labor, that had retarded innovation by distorting the labor market prices making it cheaper to run innefficiently then to invest in R&D and new technology, led them to actually focus on raising productivity.

Whether you realize it or not, this is a good argument for people who support "amnesty". I've seen it used and I use it myself. I know what your retort will be but I don't see why we couldn't have some sort of amnesty and at the same time crack down hard on border security, cut some deals with Mexico, legalize weed, and all that to reduce illegal immigration, which will come down naturally anyways.

Indeed it is, and its only the failure of Border security'/interior enforcement in the past when coupled with Amnesty that leads me to oppose a path to citizenship. People who are oppose Amnesty are often labled as racist who hates the browns, but one same token like the Nazi verus commie issue, people who support the path to citizenship are called anarchists and open borders. If you look at the record, there is a long history of the same groups pushing your "compromise" working to undermine and make impossible every enforcement effort, including crackdowns on employers. If we were to pass Amnesty, I see the same politically correct gov't we have now doing everything in their power to not do what they promised to please those groups. Meanwhile the promise of repetative "serial" amnesty increases and more illegals try to come.

What I really fear is the debate becoming one of Path to Citizenship versus Guest Worker Program. Thats the scariest one and the one Dickhead Morris is trying to do. Then it becomes a debate of pick your poison. Both will lead to what is essentially slavery of the browns and yet it is me who is accused constantly of being racist for my position when I am in fact the only one who sees the danger here. I don't want big business enslaving people and putting temporary profit over there own long term gain and the human/civil rights or minority workers. Also the great forgotten man in this is the poor Hispanic/black/white working class guy who now finds $12 and $15 an hour jobs becoming mininum wage jobs or worse (disappearing into the underground $2 hr market) and yes legalization might halt the decline, but only at minimum wage, and thats still $7.25 and hour for a job that was $12 or higher. Thats a 40% decline, that means massive over supply of workers in those fields, and unless you want people to be living like rats in slums you have to halt the increase in the supply of those skills. Once again, I am the racist for not wanting people in those conditions?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Want to solve every problem in America today, just legalize weed, and watch them all disappear?


Yeah

[fezzyfestoon]

Want to solve every problem in America today, just legalize weed, and watch them all disappear?


Yeah

Uh...did anyone say that?  There are very specifically stated reasons for how the legalization of marijuana would help this particular situation, something that has been studied extensively.  I don't understand how that suggestion is so over the top.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Want to solve every problem in America today, just legalize weed, and watch them all disappear?


Yeah

Uh...did anyone say that?  There are very specifically stated reasons for how the legalization of marijuana would help this particular situation, something that has been studied extensively.  I don't understand how that suggestion is so over the top.

Well, I have heard weed legalization being promoted as

1) Ways to solve CA's budget woes
2) End Crime
3) Stop Illegal Immigration

On all three, legalizizing marijuana would solve 5% of each problem and so they seem more like excuses to achieve legalization then anything else. I could do more with the budget, crime and Illegal Immigration without legalizing Marijuana then you can by doing. In fact by a factor of 10.

And our friend from MI who started this thread made one point which I agree with, and thats that drugs are not the predominant motivation for illegal immigration, its jobs jobs jobs. Also, the underground trafficking would move to another drug or many different drugs and maybe some would move into human trafficking and the sex trade which a lot is already happening.

[Vepres]

Guys, guys, it's simple: if we just changed our country back into a developing nation the illegals would stop coming for sure!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Guys, guys, it's simple: if we just changed our country back into a developing nation the illegals would stop coming for sure!

Why is everytime I mention the root cause (jobs), every body gets sarcastic and makes comments like this about turning us into a developing nation. NO ONE WANTS to take this issue seriously. Thats the problem. I do not want to destroy the economy to get rid of illegals, I want the economy to prosper and realize the immigration plays a part in that, but unlike some, I want it to be legal so that it can be controlled. You can't flood certain sectors with labor and expect anyone to benefit except big agribusiness, and other corporations. However bringing in high skilled workers in certain environments can creat millions of jobs across several sectors. The answer is E-verify, and a crack down on document fraud/ID theft. You can do both without a National ID card, also.

Now I happen to be in a generous mood and I will let my friend from Colorado live to see another day.

[??????????]

Guys, guys, it's simple: if we just changed our country back into a developing nation the illegals would stop coming for sure!

How about we export 12 million of our poorest folks to Canada and import 20$ billion like Mexico does?

[Platypus]

Note: We don't pay $5 per cabbage here, and we have very, very few Mexicans.

[Badger]

I don't care if there are 100,000,000 Mexicans here if there is work for them, but we HAVE to close the border.

I still haven't heard a good case to support this idea.

I haven't heard a good argument opposing it.

Seriously, instead of absolute open borders, if a prospective immigrant can pass a criminal and medical background check (as I believe is already done for visa applicants), and they have a confirmed job waiting for them, then what is the problem with at least multiplying the visas granted by 5 or 10 fold (a complete removal would be too hard to manage, I think). Just strictly apply minimum wage, health and safety and other workplace protections to them to avoid exploitation and collapse of wage standards.

It's simplistic sounding to me, but no one has yet adequately explained why it wouldn't work.

Why not several Ellis Island type compounds along the Mexican borders taking in a controlled amount of immigrants? I don't see why that wouldn't work.

Exactly! There's always the debate of "how many" of course, but what would be the problem if the US "drastically" (intentionally vague here) increased the numbers admitted who otherwise met screening criteria (criminal and health records, etc)? If the number of immigrants legally admitted was substantially increased, there would be a much reduced (though still undoubtedly present) problems with illegal immigration as immigrants obviously wouldn't want to take the risks and costs (e.g. "coyote" fees) of an illegal border crossing if they have a decent chance of coming legally. Again, it sounds simplistic even to me, but I have yet to hear an explanation why this wouldn't substantially address  (not "solve") the illegal immigration issue.

I agree 101% with NCYank's point about very real potential for exploitation of immigrant guest workers. For the same reason I'd like to see worker protection, safety and wage laws aggressively applied to guest workers as well. The Southern Poverty Law Center actually produced a very informative report a couple years ago with several specific and necessary recommendations for reforming the guest worker program.

http://www.splcenter.org/publications/close-to-slavery-guestworker-programs-in-the-united-states/recommendations-0

Beyond that I can only say that the illegal alien status of many workers only makes it easier for companies to illegally exploit laborers. Even if a company violates their employees' legal rights, if the workers are too scared their bosses will report them to INS if they stand up for themselves, those laws thus too often remain unenforced.