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Author Topic: The Confederacy and WWII  (Read 3287 times)
Derek
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« on: May 21, 2010, 12:54:19 am »
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Yes I'm a history junkie like alot of ppl on this site, but let's say the south wins the Civil War and remains its own country. Would they have gone into WWII earlier and possibly stopped Hitler? It's very interesting to think about their reaction to international affairs had they won the Civil War.
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2010, 10:00:20 am »
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Yes I'm a history junkie like alot of ppl on this site, but let's say the south wins the Civil War and remains its own country. Would they have gone into WWII earlier and possibly stopped Hitler? It's very interesting to think about their reaction to international affairs had they won the Civil War.

Perhaps they would have signed a treaty with Hitler, become part of the Axis. 
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2010, 10:03:43 am »
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Yes I'm a history junkie like alot of ppl on this site, but let's say the south wins the Civil War and remains its own country. Would they have gone into WWII earlier and possibly stopped Hitler? It's very interesting to think about their reaction to international affairs had they won the Civil War.

Perhaps they would have signed a treaty with Hitler, become part of the Axis. 


LOL and maybe the little green martians would have as well.
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WillK
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2010, 10:05:32 am »
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Yes I'm a history junkie like alot of ppl on this site, but let's say the south wins the Civil War and remains its own country. Would they have gone into WWII earlier and possibly stopped Hitler? It's very interesting to think about their reaction to international affairs had they won the Civil War.

Perhaps they would have signed a treaty with Hitler, become part of the Axis. 


LOL and maybe the little green martians would have as well.

Seems just as likely as what Derek wrote.
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Psychic Octopus
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2010, 11:22:40 am »
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WWII as we know it would not have occurred because of the butterfly effect.
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cpeeks
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2010, 03:05:07 pm »
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The south would have become allies with the british and the north with germany.
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Derek
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2010, 03:10:10 pm »
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The south would've had a chip on their shoulder after defeating the union and taken it upon themselves to lead the way to victory along with Britain possibly. There's also a possibility that they'd stay out of things. I tend to wonder because I'm all about what ifs.
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2010, 11:14:36 pm »
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The south would have become allies with the british and the north with germany.

I see someone reads Turtledove.
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cpeeks
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2010, 02:46:06 am »
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rebels british natural allies
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Ernest
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2010, 11:05:55 am »

The south would have become allies with the british and the north with germany.

I see someone reads Turtledove.

Actually, if the South won the Civil War, that the North could turn anti-British is quite plausible despite the fact that Turtledove uses it.  That said, I'd expect such sentiments to show up sooner a la The Guns of the South than later as it does in Timeline-191.

That said, I wouldn't expect an Yanko-German alliance as the Germans weren't that interested in fighting the British.  Nor would an Anglo-Confederate alliance be an inevitable response to Anglo-Yankee fighting.
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2010, 10:00:05 pm »
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I'll tell you what too, the south has always been tough on defense and I don't see them waiting as long as FDR who is said to have known about Pearl Harbor in advance, to get involved in WWII. I don't know if FDR knew about Pearl Harbor or not, but imagine the lives that could've been saved if the south had stopped Hitler a little sooner.
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2010, 10:25:02 pm »
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I'll tell you what too, the south has always been tough on defense and I don't see them waiting as long as FDR who is said to have known about Pearl Harbor in advance, to get involved in WWII. I don't know if FDR knew about Pearl Harbor or not, but imagine the lives that could've been saved if the south had stopped Hitler a little sooner.

My friend, have you received an early preview of the new Texas textbook version of "history"?
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2010, 10:51:51 pm »
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Given that the South would have had no Pacific coast and no Pearl Harbor, it is not clear why'd they enter the war at all, unless they'd have happened to be a British satellite by then, in which case the might have participated the way South Africa did. In fact, CSA would have resembled the actual SA rather well in a lot of respects.

I could see a situation in which they'd ally with the Axis on the ideological affinity grounds, but that doesn't seem too likely (unless the Brits had made themselves very unpopular while forcing the slavery abolition: but, again, that doesn't seem very likely).

In every other case (i.e., they are neither semi-British, nor anti-British), I'd think the'd have joined the war some time in 1944 (or whenever the victory would have become plausible), in order to get into the United Nations.  May be, they'd have sent a squadron or two to actually fight alongside the Allies - the way, say, Mexico did. Or else, they'd play Irish.
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2010, 11:03:04 pm »

If the US and the UK got into fighting each otheras part of a World War, I could see the CS possibly joining the war on the US side if the British try a third party blockade as they imposed upon Scandanavia and the Netherlands in WW I. Territorially, the CS would have good reason to be interested in Jamaica, the Bahamas, etc., if only to get some additional English speakers if they've absorbed Cuba and/or more of Mexico in the interim.
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2010, 11:10:02 pm »
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If the Confederacy gains it's independence, you can be sure that Woodrow Wilson won't become president of the United States, and with America split into two countries, there's a good chance that the U.S. will be run by more isolationist elements when World War I breaks out, assuming it even does as in OTL.  Thus, no U.S. involvement in World War I.  It's possible that Hitler would never come to power in Germany.  Thus, no World War II as we know it.

The Confederacy would have too many of it's own problems to get involved.  The CSA might be a third-world country by the Twentieth Century.
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Derek
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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2010, 12:31:19 am »
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This is interesting let's keep it up.
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 06:35:11 pm »
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The Confederacy wouldn't have lasted all the way up to World War II, if there would even have been a World War II.
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« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2010, 07:08:46 pm »

The Confederacy wouldn't have lasted all the way up to World War II, if there would even have been a World War II.

While it is quite possible that the Confederacy would have fractured further, had the South gained its independence in the Civil War, it would not have been rejoining the Union later.
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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 07:45:16 pm »
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Given that the South would have had no Pacific coast and no Pearl Harbor, it is not clear why'd they enter the war at all, unless they'd have happened to be a British satellite by then, in which case the might have participated the way South Africa did. In fact, CSA would have resembled the actual SA rather well in a lot of respects.
By any reasonable cultural or objective sociological comparisons that analogy is absurd.

On the contrary, reasonable sociological comparisons have been made between southern segregation and south african apartheid.
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Derek
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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 10:07:19 pm »
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Given that the South would have had no Pacific coast and no Pearl Harbor, it is not clear why'd they enter the war at all, unless they'd have happened to be a British satellite by then, in which case the might have participated the way South Africa did. In fact, CSA would have resembled the actual SA rather well in a lot of respects.
By any reasonable cultural or objective sociological comparisons that analogy is absurd.

Any reasonable nation acts before it is attacked in order to prevent such things as Pearl Harbor. The south would have done just that.
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WillK
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« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 10:11:02 pm »
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Any reasonable nation acts before it is attacked in order to prevent such things as Pearl Harbor. The south would have done just that.

Therefore, by your logic, it was reasonable for Japan to attack Pearl Harbor in order to get the jump on the US.
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Derek
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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2010, 10:33:10 pm »
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Any reasonable nation acts before it is attacked in order to prevent such things as Pearl Harbor. The south would have done just that.

Therefore, by your logic, it was reasonable for Japan to attack Pearl Harbor in order to get the jump on the US.

No because the US was never plotting an attack on pearl harbor.
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WillK
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2010, 10:40:02 pm »
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Any reasonable nation acts before it is attacked in order to prevent such things as Pearl Harbor. The south would have done just that.

Therefore, by your logic, it was reasonable for Japan to attack Pearl Harbor in order to get the jump on the US.

No because the US was never plotting an attack on pearl harbor.

Does a reasonable country, in your view, need to be sure of that or are indications that another country might be plotting an attack enough?
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cpeeks
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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2010, 11:27:41 pm »
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Why would the south attack, the south wouldnt have Pearl Harbor as a port nor would it have any reason to be involved in a Pacific war.
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Derek
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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2010, 02:21:49 am »
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Any reasonable nation acts before it is attacked in order to prevent such things as Pearl Harbor. The south would have done just that.

Therefore, by your logic, it was reasonable for Japan to attack Pearl Harbor in order to get the jump on the US.

No because the US was never plotting an attack on pearl harbor.

Does a reasonable country, in your view, need to be sure of that or are indications that another country might be plotting an attack enough?

How can you be sure? With all the wrongdoings going on at that time I think common sense is plenty.
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