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May 22, 2013, 03:27:31 am
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General Discussion
Constitution and Law
(Moderators:
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True Federalist
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Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
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Author
Topic: Is Judicial Review Constitutional? (Read 6036 times)
WillK
YaBB God
Posts: 1304
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #50 on:
June 01, 2010, 09:39:49 pm »
What did Jefferson contribute, intellectually, to the Constitution?
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 08:42:02 pm
Quote from: Assemblyman of the Glorious Region Known as the Mideast Ben on June 01, 2010, 07:40:21 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 30, 2010, 12:52:22 pm
Adams did not contribute much to the intellectual underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. Jefferson and Madison did. They were far more qualified than Adams to comment on the constitutionality of judicial review.
Well, that is certainly an inaccurate historical statement.
Well no, it most certainly is not.
Logged
Senator Ben
benconstine
YaBB God
Posts: 29793
Political Matrix
E: -5.81, S: 0.35
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #51 on:
June 01, 2010, 09:40:10 pm »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 08:42:02 pm
Well no, it most certainly is not.
You may think you're right, and I'm sure in your fantasy world you are, but in the world of
facts
, you are incorrect. Sorry.
Logged
Quote from: The Mikado on March 18, 2011, 11:12:39 pm
Obama High's debate team:
"Now let me be clear...I...I...um...uh...now let me be clear. I strongly condemn the affirmative in the strongest possible terms, and I am closely monitoring their arguments. Let me be clear on this."
Senator Libertas
Libertas
YaBB God
Posts: 14848
Political Matrix
E: -7.23, S: -6.43
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #52 on:
June 01, 2010, 09:57:14 pm »
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 09:39:49 pm
What did Jefferson contribute, intellectually, to the Constitution?
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 08:42:02 pm
Quote from: Assemblyman of the Glorious Region Known as the Mideast Ben on June 01, 2010, 07:40:21 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 30, 2010, 12:52:22 pm
Adams did not contribute much to the intellectual underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. Jefferson and Madison did. They were far more qualified than Adams to comment on the constitutionality of judicial review.
Well, that is certainly an inaccurate historical statement.
Well no, it most certainly is not.
The Constitution is based on the Jeffersonian principle that the government be limited strictly to specifically-enumerated powers. In addition, it is thanks largely to the Jeffersonians that we have our Bill of Rights.
Adams's conservative, aristocratic, authoritarian view of government is not reflected in the Constitution.
Logged
WillK
YaBB God
Posts: 1304
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #53 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:02:26 pm »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 09:57:14 pm
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 09:39:49 pm
What did Jefferson contribute, intellectually, to the Constitution?
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 08:42:02 pm
Quote from: Assemblyman of the Glorious Region Known as the Mideast Ben on June 01, 2010, 07:40:21 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 30, 2010, 12:52:22 pm
Adams did not contribute much to the intellectual underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. Jefferson and Madison did. They were far more qualified than Adams to comment on the constitutionality of judicial review.
Well, that is certainly an inaccurate historical statement.
Well no, it most certainly is not.
The Constitution is based on the Jeffersonian principle that the government be limited strictly to specifically-enumerated powers. In addition, it is thanks largely to the Jeffersonians that we have our Bill of Rights.
Epic fail of a response. The concept of "Jeffersonian" did not exist at the time the Constitution was drafted. You claimed that Jefferson himself, not some alleged "Jeffersonians", had contributed much to the intellectual underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution.
Quote
Adams's conservative, aristocratic, authoritarian view of government is not reflected in the Constitution.
Adam's intellectual views on government expressed in his work on the Massachusetts Constitution and his book on American state constitutions, which was published in the US at the time of the Constitution, had a big impact on the drafting of the US constitution. His view of the need to balance powers against each other is a main feature of the Constitution.
Logged
Senator Ben
benconstine
YaBB God
Posts: 29793
Political Matrix
E: -5.81, S: 0.35
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #54 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:03:17 pm »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 09:57:14 pm
The Constitution is based on the Jeffersonian principle that the government be limited strictly to specifically-enumerated powers.
In addition, it is thanks largely to the Jeffersonians that we have our Bill of Rights.
Adams's conservative, aristocratic, authoritarian view of government is not reflected in the Constitution.
Wow; that is almost completely wrong. Only the bolded part has even the slightest historical merit.
Logged
Quote from: The Mikado on March 18, 2011, 11:12:39 pm
Obama High's debate team:
"Now let me be clear...I...I...um...uh...now let me be clear. I strongly condemn the affirmative in the strongest possible terms, and I am closely monitoring their arguments. Let me be clear on this."
Senator Libertas
Libertas
YaBB God
Posts: 14848
Political Matrix
E: -7.23, S: -6.43
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #55 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:07:42 pm »
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:02:26 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 09:57:14 pm
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 09:39:49 pm
What did Jefferson contribute, intellectually, to the Constitution?
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 08:42:02 pm
Quote from: Assemblyman of the Glorious Region Known as the Mideast Ben on June 01, 2010, 07:40:21 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 30, 2010, 12:52:22 pm
Adams did not contribute much to the intellectual underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. Jefferson and Madison did. They were far more qualified than Adams to comment on the constitutionality of judicial review.
Well, that is certainly an inaccurate historical statement.
Well no, it most certainly is not.
The Constitution is based on the Jeffersonian principle that the government be limited strictly to specifically-enumerated powers. In addition, it is thanks largely to the Jeffersonians that we have our Bill of Rights.
Epic fail of a response. The concept of "Jeffersonian" did not exist at the time the Constitution was drafted. You claimed that Jefferson himself, not some alleged "Jeffersonians", had contributed much to the intellectual underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution.
Quote
Adams's conservative, aristocratic, authoritarian view of government is not reflected in the Constitution.
Adam's intellectual views on government expressed in his work on the Massachusetts Constitution and his book on American state constitutions, which was published in the US at the time of the Constitution, had a big impact on the drafting of the US constitution. His view of the need to balance powers against each other is a main feature of the Constitution.
Epic fail of a response? Right back atcha.
Adams' intellectual influence on our Constitutional system was minimal at best.
Quote
In the book, Adams suggested that "the rich, the well-born and the able" should be set apart from other men in a senate—that would prevent them from dominating the lower house. Wood (2006) has maintained that
Adams had become intellectually irrelevant by the time the Federal Constitution was ratified.
By then, American political thought, transformed by more than a decade of vigorous and searching debate as well as shaping experiential pressures, had abandoned the classical conception of politics which understood government as a mirror of social estates.
Logged
WillK
YaBB God
Posts: 1304
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #56 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:14:22 pm »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:07:42 pm
Adams' intellectual influence on our Constitutional system was minimal at best.
Quote
In the book, Adams suggested that "the rich, the well-born and the able" should be set apart from other men in a senate—that would prevent them from dominating the lower house. Wood (2006) has maintained that
Adams had become intellectually irrelevant by the time the Federal Constitution was ratified.
By then, American political thought, transformed by more than a decade of vigorous and searching debate as well as shaping experiential pressures, had abandoned the classical conception of politics which understood government as a mirror of social estates.
In doing a cut-and-paste from Wikipedia, you left off the next part:
Quote
Wood overlooks Adams's peculiar definition of the term "republic," and his support for a constitution ratified by the people.[43] He also underplays Adams's belief in checks and balances. "Power must be opposed to power, and interest to interest,” Adams wrote; this sentiment would later be echoed by James Madison's famous statement that "[a]mbition must be made to counteract ambition" in The Federalist No. 51, in explaining the powers of the branches of the United States federal government under the new Constitution.[44][45]
Adams did as much as anyone to put the idea of "checks and balances" on the intellectual map
.
Logged
Senator Libertas
Libertas
YaBB God
Posts: 14848
Political Matrix
E: -7.23, S: -6.43
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #57 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:20:16 pm »
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:14:22 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:07:42 pm
Adams' intellectual influence on our Constitutional system was minimal at best.
Quote
In the book, Adams suggested that "the rich, the well-born and the able" should be set apart from other men in a senate—that would prevent them from dominating the lower house. Wood (2006) has maintained that
Adams had become intellectually irrelevant by the time the Federal Constitution was ratified.
By then, American political thought, transformed by more than a decade of vigorous and searching debate as well as shaping experiential pressures, had abandoned the classical conception of politics which understood government as a mirror of social estates.
In doing a cut-and-paste from Wikipedia, you left off the next part:
Quote
Wood overlooks Adams's peculiar definition of the term "republic," and his support for a constitution ratified by the people.[43] He also underplays Adams's belief in checks and balances. "Power must be opposed to power, and interest to interest,” Adams wrote; this sentiment would later be echoed by James Madison's famous statement that "[a]mbition must be made to counteract ambition" in The Federalist No. 51, in explaining the powers of the branches of the United States federal government under the new Constitution.[44][45]
Adams did as much as anyone to put the idea of "checks and balances" on the intellectual map
.
Sorry, that doesn't disprove anything I said. Adams's contributions to the American government were minimal, and that's why authors in more recent times have had to go out of their way to find examples to point out. That doesn't put him anywhere near the level of Jefferson, whose ideals fundamentally shaped American political thought.
Logged
WillK
YaBB God
Posts: 1304
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #58 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:25:00 pm »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:20:16 pm
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:14:22 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:07:42 pm
Adams' intellectual influence on our Constitutional system was minimal at best.
Quote
In the book, Adams suggested that "the rich, the well-born and the able" should be set apart from other men in a senate—that would prevent them from dominating the lower house. Wood (2006) has maintained that
Adams had become intellectually irrelevant by the time the Federal Constitution was ratified.
By then, American political thought, transformed by more than a decade of vigorous and searching debate as well as shaping experiential pressures, had abandoned the classical conception of politics which understood government as a mirror of social estates.
In doing a cut-and-paste from Wikipedia, you left off the next part:
Quote
Wood overlooks Adams's peculiar definition of the term "republic," and his support for a constitution ratified by the people.[43] He also underplays Adams's belief in checks and balances. "Power must be opposed to power, and interest to interest,” Adams wrote; this sentiment would later be echoed by James Madison's famous statement that "[a]mbition must be made to counteract ambition" in The Federalist No. 51, in explaining the powers of the branches of the United States federal government under the new Constitution.[44][45]
Adams did as much as anyone to put the idea of "checks and balances" on the intellectual map
.
Sorry, that doesn't disprove anything I said. Adams's contributions to the American government were minimal, and that's why authors in more recent times have had to go out of their way to find examples to point out. That doesn't put him anywhere near the level of Jefferson, whose ideals fundamentally shaped American political thought.
The bold/underline sentance in what I quoted contradicts everything you said.
Regardless, Adams was head and shoulders above Jefferson in intellectual contributions to this country. Basic knowledge of their writings and influence shows this.
Logged
True Federalist
Ernest
Moderator
YaBB God
Posts: 21511
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #59 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:31:52 pm »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 09:57:14 pm
The Constitution is based on the Jeffersonian principle that the government be limited strictly to specifically-enumerated powers.
If that is a Jeffersonian principle, he must have developed it after 1776. Jefferson was quite proud of his contributions to the Virginia Constitution of 1776, but there isn't even a hint of the concept of enumerated powers in that document. It did have separation of powers into three branches, and a bill of rights that gives specifically enumerated limitations on governmental power.
Incidentally, that constitution had an even stricter separation of church and state than the U.S. Constitution, in that "all ministers of the gospel, of every denomination, be incapable of being elected members of either House of Assembly or the Privy Council".
Logged
“Always it is easier to pay homage to prophets than to heed the direction of their vision.”
Clinton Lee Scott
Read
Fat Man on a Diet
, an alternate history in which the history of atomic weapons does not go as it did in our timeline.
Senator Libertas
Libertas
YaBB God
Posts: 14848
Political Matrix
E: -7.23, S: -6.43
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #60 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:36:39 pm »
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:25:00 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:20:16 pm
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:14:22 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:07:42 pm
Adams' intellectual influence on our Constitutional system was minimal at best.
Quote
In the book, Adams suggested that "the rich, the well-born and the able" should be set apart from other men in a senate—that would prevent them from dominating the lower house. Wood (2006) has maintained that
Adams had become intellectually irrelevant by the time the Federal Constitution was ratified.
By then, American political thought, transformed by more than a decade of vigorous and searching debate as well as shaping experiential pressures, had abandoned the classical conception of politics which understood government as a mirror of social estates.
In doing a cut-and-paste from Wikipedia, you left off the next part:
Quote
Wood overlooks Adams's peculiar definition of the term "republic," and his support for a constitution ratified by the people.[43] He also underplays Adams's belief in checks and balances. "Power must be opposed to power, and interest to interest,” Adams wrote; this sentiment would later be echoed by James Madison's famous statement that "[a]mbition must be made to counteract ambition" in The Federalist No. 51, in explaining the powers of the branches of the United States federal government under the new Constitution.[44][45]
Adams did as much as anyone to put the idea of "checks and balances" on the intellectual map
.
Sorry, that doesn't disprove anything I said. Adams's contributions to the American government were minimal, and that's why authors in more recent times have had to go out of their way to find examples to point out. That doesn't put him anywhere near the level of Jefferson, whose ideals fundamentally shaped American political thought.
The bold/underline sentance in what I quoted contradicts everything you said.
Regardless, Adams was head and shoulders above Jefferson in intellectual contributions to this country. Basic knowledge of their writings and influence shows this.
Sorry, I've read both of their writings, and in fact I've read many of their letters to each other. Adams was a decent man of good intentions, but his worldview was conservative and narrow-minded, contrary to the spirit of the American Revolution.
Logged
Senator Libertas
Libertas
YaBB God
Posts: 14848
Political Matrix
E: -7.23, S: -6.43
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #61 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:40:14 pm »
Quote from: True Federalist on June 01, 2010, 10:31:52 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 09:57:14 pm
The Constitution is based on the Jeffersonian principle that the government be limited strictly to specifically-enumerated powers.
If that is a Jeffersonian principle, he must have developed it after 1776. Jefferson was quite proud of his contributions to the Virginia Constitution of 1776, but there isn't even a hint of the concept of enumerated powers in that document. It did have separation of powers into three branches, and a bill of rights that gives specifically enumerated limitations on governmental power.
Incidentally, that constitution had an even stricter separation of church and state than the U.S. Constitution, in that "all ministers of the gospel, of every denomination, be incapable of being elected members of either House of Assembly or the Privy Council".
And Adams considered the principles of Christianity to be the principles upon which the Founding Fathers achieved independence...
Logged
WillK
YaBB God
Posts: 1304
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #62 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:45:48 pm »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:36:39 pm
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:25:00 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:20:16 pm
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:14:22 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:07:42 pm
Adams' intellectual influence on our Constitutional system was minimal at best.
Quote
In the book, Adams suggested that "the rich, the well-born and the able" should be set apart from other men in a senate—that would prevent them from dominating the lower house. Wood (2006) has maintained that
Adams had become intellectually irrelevant by the time the Federal Constitution was ratified.
By then, American political thought, transformed by more than a decade of vigorous and searching debate as well as shaping experiential pressures, had abandoned the classical conception of politics which understood government as a mirror of social estates.
In doing a cut-and-paste from Wikipedia, you left off the next part:
Quote
Wood overlooks Adams's peculiar definition of the term "republic," and his support for a constitution ratified by the people.[43] He also underplays Adams's belief in checks and balances. "Power must be opposed to power, and interest to interest,” Adams wrote; this sentiment would later be echoed by James Madison's famous statement that "[a]mbition must be made to counteract ambition" in The Federalist No. 51, in explaining the powers of the branches of the United States federal government under the new Constitution.[44][45]
Adams did as much as anyone to put the idea of "checks and balances" on the intellectual map
.
Sorry, that doesn't disprove anything I said. Adams's contributions to the American government were minimal, and that's why authors in more recent times have had to go out of their way to find examples to point out. That doesn't put him anywhere near the level of Jefferson, whose ideals fundamentally shaped American political thought.
The bold/underline sentance in what I quoted contradicts everything you said.
Regardless, Adams was head and shoulders above Jefferson in intellectual contributions to this country. Basic knowledge of their writings and influence shows this.
Sorry, I've read both of their writings ....
I find that hard to believe
Logged
Senator Libertas
Libertas
YaBB God
Posts: 14848
Political Matrix
E: -7.23, S: -6.43
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #63 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:46:30 pm »
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:45:48 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:36:39 pm
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:25:00 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:20:16 pm
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 10:14:22 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:07:42 pm
Adams' intellectual influence on our Constitutional system was minimal at best.
Quote
In the book, Adams suggested that "the rich, the well-born and the able" should be set apart from other men in a senate—that would prevent them from dominating the lower house. Wood (2006) has maintained that
Adams had become intellectually irrelevant by the time the Federal Constitution was ratified.
By then, American political thought, transformed by more than a decade of vigorous and searching debate as well as shaping experiential pressures, had abandoned the classical conception of politics which understood government as a mirror of social estates.
In doing a cut-and-paste from Wikipedia, you left off the next part:
Quote
Wood overlooks Adams's peculiar definition of the term "republic," and his support for a constitution ratified by the people.[43] He also underplays Adams's belief in checks and balances. "Power must be opposed to power, and interest to interest,” Adams wrote; this sentiment would later be echoed by James Madison's famous statement that "[a]mbition must be made to counteract ambition" in The Federalist No. 51, in explaining the powers of the branches of the United States federal government under the new Constitution.[44][45]
Adams did as much as anyone to put the idea of "checks and balances" on the intellectual map
.
Sorry, that doesn't disprove anything I said. Adams's contributions to the American government were minimal, and that's why authors in more recent times have had to go out of their way to find examples to point out. That doesn't put him anywhere near the level of Jefferson, whose ideals fundamentally shaped American political thought.
The bold/underline sentance in what I quoted contradicts everything you said.
Regardless, Adams was head and shoulders above Jefferson in intellectual contributions to this country. Basic knowledge of their writings and influence shows this.
Sorry, I've read both of their writings ....
I find that hard to believe
Okay.
Logged
True Federalist
Ernest
Moderator
YaBB God
Posts: 21511
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #64 on:
June 01, 2010, 10:56:42 pm »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 10:40:14 pm
Quote from: True Federalist on June 01, 2010, 10:31:52 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 09:57:14 pm
The Constitution is based on the Jeffersonian principle that the government be limited strictly to specifically-enumerated powers.
If that is a Jeffersonian principle, he must have developed it after 1776. Jefferson was quite proud of his contributions to the Virginia Constitution of 1776, but there isn't even a hint of the concept of enumerated powers in that document. It did have separation of powers into three branches, and a bill of rights that gives specifically enumerated limitations on governmental power.
Incidentally, that constitution had an even stricter separation of church and state than the U.S. Constitution, in that "all ministers of the gospel, of every denomination, be incapable of being elected members of either House of Assembly or the Privy Council".
And Adams considered the principles of Christianity to be the principles upon which the Founding Fathers achieved independence...
In the context of the full clause that is found in, its clear that the Virginia limitation on ministers was likely a reaction to the governmental payment of ministerial salaries in colonial times, as not just ministers but also everyone drawing a governmental salary was similarly enjoined from being elected.
Quote
The two Houses of Assembly shall, by joint ballot, appoint Judges of the Supreme Court of Appeals, and General Court, Judges in Chancery, Judges of Admiralty, Secretary, and the Attorney-General, to be commissioned by the Governor, and continue in office during good behaviour. In case of death, incapacity, or resignation, the Governor, with the advice of the Privy Council, shall appoint persons to succeed in office, to be approved or displaced by both Houses. These officers shall have fixed and adequate salaries, and, together with all others, holding lucrative offices, and all ministers of the gospel, of every denomination, be incapable of being elected members of either House of Assembly or the Privy Council.
That clause is not the only mention of religion in that Constitution however:
Quote from: Bill of Rights, Section 16
That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.
That would seem to support Adams views on the importance to the Founding Fathers of Christian principles, which sadly often have nothing to do with Christian ministers, especially those that try to involve themselves in government.
Logged
“Always it is easier to pay homage to prophets than to heed the direction of their vision.”
Clinton Lee Scott
Read
Fat Man on a Diet
, an alternate history in which the history of atomic weapons does not go as it did in our timeline.
beneficii
Full Member
Posts: 159
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #65 on:
June 02, 2010, 12:59:24 am »
Quote from: True Federalist on June 01, 2010, 10:31:52 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 09:57:14 pm
The Constitution is based on the Jeffersonian principle that the government be limited strictly to specifically-enumerated powers.
If that is a Jeffersonian principle, he must have developed it after 1776. Jefferson was quite proud of his contributions to the Virginia Constitution of 1776,
but there isn't even a hint of the concept of enumerated powers in that document.
It did have separation of powers into three branches, and a bill of rights that gives specifically enumerated limitations on governmental power.
Incidentally, that constitution had an even stricter separation of church and state than the U.S. Constitution, in that "all ministers of the gospel, of every denomination, be incapable of being elected members of either House of Assembly or the Privy Council".
(This is a response to the text I bolded.)
I think it was because Virginia was a unitary state that its constitution didn't have enumerated powers. Enumerated powers tend to be creatures of federal states:
Quote
Unlike unitary states, the central government in federal states possesses only the minimum number of competencies and necessary powers to guarantee the political and economic unity of the federation, while the other levels possess full capacity for self-government in all other spheres. In its own sphere no government level must be subordinate to the level above.
http://www.jef.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=63&Itemid=46
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Communists For McCain
Mechaman
YaBB God
Posts: 12401
Political Matrix
E: -4.58, S: -8.48
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #66 on:
June 02, 2010, 06:49:27 am »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 09:57:14 pm
Quote from: WillK on June 01, 2010, 09:39:49 pm
What did Jefferson contribute, intellectually, to the Constitution?
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on June 01, 2010, 08:42:02 pm
Quote from: Assemblyman of the Glorious Region Known as the Mideast Ben on June 01, 2010, 07:40:21 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 30, 2010, 12:52:22 pm
Adams did not contribute much to the intellectual underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. Jefferson and Madison did. They were far more qualified than Adams to comment on the constitutionality of judicial review.
Well, that is certainly an inaccurate historical statement.
Well no, it most certainly is not.
The Constitution is based on the Jeffersonian principle that the government be limited strictly to specifically-enumerated powers. In addition, it is thanks largely to the Jeffersonians that we have our Bill of Rights.
Adams's conservative, aristocratic, authoritarian view of government is not reflected in the Constitution.
Well sorry to be prying here Tas, but I find it odd that you would vote for Adams over Jefferson in 1796 given your opinion of his views of government..............
I mean really.
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Support the real revolutionary choice next time around. Senator John McCain for Communist Party of America Presidential Nomination!
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Moderators
YaBB God
Posts: 20864
Political Matrix
E: 1.38, S: -1.74
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #67 on:
June 02, 2010, 11:00:08 am »
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 28, 2010, 02:24:40 pm
Quote from: Governor Morgan Brykein on May 28, 2010, 02:11:32 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 28, 2010, 11:17:51 am
Quote from: I'm going down the road toward tiny cities made of ashes on May 28, 2010, 10:22:19 am
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 28, 2010, 01:43:16 am
No, its extra-constitutional nonsense that has been used to enable tyranny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
Very tyranny-enabling indeed.
Indeed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_%26_M_Records,_Inc._v._Napster,_Inc
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_v._Caballes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Education_v._Earls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atwater_v._City_of_Lago_Vista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_v._United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Ross
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio
Don't forget this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
Of course, there are tons more that could be cited, but I'm sure BRTD thinks a case like that abusing the Constitution's language to expand government power over the economy was a good thing.
You're confusing concept with reality. So, judicial review has been used to do some bad things, but that is not the fault of judicial review, that is the fault of the current Court.
Anyway, even though the role of the Supreme Court was not fully defined until Marbury, that general idea had been the intention of the Constitution. It wasn't just made up.
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Senator Ben
benconstine
YaBB God
Posts: 29793
Political Matrix
E: -5.81, S: 0.35
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #68 on:
June 02, 2010, 02:41:59 pm »
Quote from: Supersoulty on June 02, 2010, 11:00:08 am
Anyway, even though the role of the Supreme Court was not fully defined until Marbury, that general idea had been the intention of the Constitution. It wasn't just made up.
Later than that, I'd argue. After
Marbury
, judicial review wasn't used again until
Dred Scott
, so I'd say that the role of the Court in terms of reviewing federal laws had not taken hold. Not even until the New Deal was the SCOTUS regularly involved in striking laws.
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Senator Libertas
Libertas
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Posts: 14848
Political Matrix
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Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #69 on:
June 02, 2010, 02:53:24 pm »
Quote from: Supersoulty on June 02, 2010, 11:00:08 am
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 28, 2010, 02:24:40 pm
Quote from: Governor Morgan Brykein on May 28, 2010, 02:11:32 pm
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 28, 2010, 11:17:51 am
Quote from: I'm going down the road toward tiny cities made of ashes on May 28, 2010, 10:22:19 am
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 28, 2010, 01:43:16 am
No, its extra-constitutional nonsense that has been used to enable tyranny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
Very tyranny-enabling indeed.
Indeed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_%26_M_Records,_Inc._v._Napster,_Inc
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_v._Caballes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Education_v._Earls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atwater_v._City_of_Lago_Vista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_v._United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Ross
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio
Don't forget this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
Of course, there are tons more that could be cited, but I'm sure BRTD thinks a case like that abusing the Constitution's language to expand government power over the economy was a good thing.
You're confusing concept with reality. So, judicial review has been used to do some bad things, but that is not the fault of judicial review, that is the fault of the current Court.
Anyway, even though the role of the Supreme Court was not fully defined until Marbury, that general idea had been the intention of the Constitution. It wasn't just made up.
The concept of judicial review, whereby a group of nine unelected divine black robes who are unaccountable to the people are endowed with dictatorial powers over the fate of the nation, is fundamentally flawed and incompatible with a free society.
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True Federalist
Ernest
Moderator
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Posts: 21511
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #70 on:
June 02, 2010, 05:35:11 pm »
Quote from: beneficii on June 02, 2010, 12:59:24 am
Enumerated powers tend to be creatures of federal states:
Quote
Unlike unitary states, the central government in federal states possesses only the minimum number of competencies and necessary powers to guarantee the political and economic unity of the federation, while the other levels possess full capacity for self-government in all other spheres. In its own sphere no government level must be subordinate to the level above.
http://www.jef.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=63&Itemid=46
Enumerated powers are more common in federal constitutions, because the component states did not wish to trust the federal government with a broad grant of power. Also if too broad a grant is given, then it may not be a federal government any longer. However, enumerated powers are found in the constitutions of a number of the States of the United States, most notably Alabama, where the constitution was written because the people did not wish to trust the state government with a broad grant of power.
Enumerated powers are thus a mark of distrust in the power of republican institutions to safeguard the freedoms of those who are represented in them.
The Alabama Constitution of 1901, because of its distrust of what both State and local governments might do, has managed to require close to 800 Amendments in less than 11 decades.
My favorite amendment of the Alabama Constitution is:
Quote from: Amendment 449
Eradication or Control of the Boll Weevil in Cotton.
Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, the legislature may hereafter, by general law, provide for the eradication or control of the boll weevil in cotton. The legislature may provide for and is authorized to provide means and methods for the financing of this activity by prescribing a procedure whereby cotton growers may, by referendum held among such growers in this state, levy upon themselves and collect assessments, fees and charges, based upon the amount of acreage of cotton planted. The legislature is authorized to make provisions for non-payment of such assessments. The legislature shall provide for the collection and distribution of assessments or charges authorized hereunder and to provide penalties for failure to pay said assessments. The legislature shall provide for the designation of a non-profit organization which has been organized for the purpose of eradicating or controlling the boll weevil in cotton; to administer and carry out said eradication or control program; to also include conducting elections or referendums among cotton growers.
The legislature shall further provide for the deposit, withdrawal, disbursement and expenditure by the designated organization of any funds received, subject to the supervision and control of the activities authorized herein by the state department of agriculture and industries and the state board of agriculture and industries. Assessments, fees, or other charges collected as authorized by any legislative act adopted under authority hereof shall not be considered as a tax within the meaning of this Constitution or any provision thereof. The legislature shall further provide a procedure for the examination and auditing of said organization and for reasonable rules and regulations to be adopted by the state board of agriculture and industries; to effectively carry out the intent and purposes herein enumerated. Any uniformity requirements of this Constitution shall be satisfied by the application of the program to eradicate or control the boll weevil in cotton.
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“Always it is easier to pay homage to prophets than to heed the direction of their vision.”
Clinton Lee Scott
Read
Fat Man on a Diet
, an alternate history in which the history of atomic weapons does not go as it did in our timeline.
Verily
Cuivienen
YaBB God
Posts: 16900
Political Matrix
E: 1.81, S: -6.78
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #71 on:
June 02, 2010, 10:22:35 pm »
Quote from: True Federalist on June 02, 2010, 05:35:11 pm
Quote from: beneficii on June 02, 2010, 12:59:24 am
Enumerated powers tend to be creatures of federal states:
Quote
Unlike unitary states, the central government in federal states possesses only the minimum number of competencies and necessary powers to guarantee the political and economic unity of the federation, while the other levels possess full capacity for self-government in all other spheres. In its own sphere no government level must be subordinate to the level above.
http://www.jef.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=63&Itemid=46
Enumerated powers are more common in federal constitutions, because the component states did not wish to trust the federal government with a broad grant of power. Also if too broad a grant is given, then it may not be a federal government any longer. However, enumerated powers are found in the constitutions of a number of the States of the United States, most notably Alabama, where the constitution was written because the people did not wish to trust the state government with a broad grant of power.
Enumerated powers are thus a mark of distrust in the power of republican institutions to safeguard the freedoms of those who are represented in them.
The Alabama Constitution of 1901, because of its distrust of what both State and local governments might do, has managed to require close to 800 Amendments in less than 11 decades.
My favorite amendment of the Alabama Constitution is:
Quote from: Amendment 449
Eradication or Control of the Boll Weevil in Cotton.
Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, the legislature may hereafter, by general law, provide for the eradication or control of the boll weevil in cotton. The legislature may provide for and is authorized to provide means and methods for the financing of this activity by prescribing a procedure whereby cotton growers may, by referendum held among such growers in this state, levy upon themselves and collect assessments, fees and charges, based upon the amount of acreage of cotton planted. The legislature is authorized to make provisions for non-payment of such assessments. The legislature shall provide for the collection and distribution of assessments or charges authorized hereunder and to provide penalties for failure to pay said assessments. The legislature shall provide for the designation of a non-profit organization which has been organized for the purpose of eradicating or controlling the boll weevil in cotton; to administer and carry out said eradication or control program; to also include conducting elections or referendums among cotton growers.
The legislature shall further provide for the deposit, withdrawal, disbursement and expenditure by the designated organization of any funds received, subject to the supervision and control of the activities authorized herein by the state department of agriculture and industries and the state board of agriculture and industries. Assessments, fees, or other charges collected as authorized by any legislative act adopted under authority hereof shall not be considered as a tax within the meaning of this Constitution or any provision thereof. The legislature shall further provide a procedure for the examination and auditing of said organization and for reasonable rules and regulations to be adopted by the state board of agriculture and industries; to effectively carry out the intent and purposes herein enumerated. Any uniformity requirements of this Constitution shall be satisfied by the application of the program to eradicate or control the boll weevil in cotton.
It is also true that successful federal states need not have enumerated powers. Germany is perhaps the best example, as it is highly federal and yet allows the federal government to legislate on more or less everything.
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Free Palestine
FallenMorgan
YaBB God
Posts: 8149
Political Matrix
E: -10.00, S: -10.00
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #72 on:
June 03, 2010, 12:01:17 am »
Quote from: Verily on June 02, 2010, 10:22:35 pm
Quote from: True Federalist on June 02, 2010, 05:35:11 pm
Quote from: beneficii on June 02, 2010, 12:59:24 am
Enumerated powers tend to be creatures of federal states:
Quote
Unlike unitary states, the central government in federal states possesses only the minimum number of competencies and necessary powers to guarantee the political and economic unity of the federation, while the other levels possess full capacity for self-government in all other spheres. In its own sphere no government level must be subordinate to the level above.
http://www.jef.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=63&Itemid=46
Enumerated powers are more common in federal constitutions, because the component states did not wish to trust the federal government with a broad grant of power. Also if too broad a grant is given, then it may not be a federal government any longer. However, enumerated powers are found in the constitutions of a number of the States of the United States, most notably Alabama, where the constitution was written because the people did not wish to trust the state government with a broad grant of power.
Enumerated powers are thus a mark of distrust in the power of republican institutions to safeguard the freedoms of those who are represented in them.
The Alabama Constitution of 1901, because of its distrust of what both State and local governments might do, has managed to require close to 800 Amendments in less than 11 decades.
My favorite amendment of the Alabama Constitution is:
Quote from: Amendment 449
Eradication or Control of the Boll Weevil in Cotton.
Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, the legislature may hereafter, by general law, provide for the eradication or control of the boll weevil in cotton. The legislature may provide for and is authorized to provide means and methods for the financing of this activity by prescribing a procedure whereby cotton growers may, by referendum held among such growers in this state, levy upon themselves and collect assessments, fees and charges, based upon the amount of acreage of cotton planted. The legislature is authorized to make provisions for non-payment of such assessments. The legislature shall provide for the collection and distribution of assessments or charges authorized hereunder and to provide penalties for failure to pay said assessments. The legislature shall provide for the designation of a non-profit organization which has been organized for the purpose of eradicating or controlling the boll weevil in cotton; to administer and carry out said eradication or control program; to also include conducting elections or referendums among cotton growers.
The legislature shall further provide for the deposit, withdrawal, disbursement and expenditure by the designated organization of any funds received, subject to the supervision and control of the activities authorized herein by the state department of agriculture and industries and the state board of agriculture and industries. Assessments, fees, or other charges collected as authorized by any legislative act adopted under authority hereof shall not be considered as a tax within the meaning of this Constitution or any provision thereof. The legislature shall further provide a procedure for the examination and auditing of said organization and for reasonable rules and regulations to be adopted by the state board of agriculture and industries; to effectively carry out the intent and purposes herein enumerated. Any uniformity requirements of this Constitution shall be satisfied by the application of the program to eradicate or control the boll weevil in cotton.
It is also true that successful federal states need not have enumerated powers. Germany is perhaps the best example, as it is highly federal and yet allows the federal government to legislate on more or less everything.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious why Germany isn't the best example.
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I left.
Franzl
YaBB God
Posts: 20474
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #73 on:
June 03, 2010, 06:11:02 am »
Quote from: Governor Morgan Brykein on June 03, 2010, 12:01:17 am
Yeah, it's pretty obvious why Germany isn't the best example.
Then explain it to a dumb like me.
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I've lost interest in the forum and I've wasted far too much time here.
To those I consider forum friends, it's been nice and I hope to keep contact in some form.
Cheers.
Verily
Cuivienen
YaBB God
Posts: 16900
Political Matrix
E: 1.81, S: -6.78
Re: Is Judicial Review Constitutional?
«
Reply #74 on:
June 16, 2010, 09:13:48 pm »
Quote from: Moderate Hero on May 28, 2010, 11:17:51 am
Quote from: I'm going down the road toward tiny cities made of ashes on May 28, 2010, 10:22:19 am
Quote from: Rerum Novarum on May 28, 2010, 01:43:16 am
No, its extra-constitutional nonsense that has been used to enable tyranny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
Very tyranny-enabling indeed.
Indeed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_%26_M_Records,_Inc._v._Napster,_Inc
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_v._Caballes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Education_v._Earls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atwater_v._City_of_Lago_Vista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_v._United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Ross
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio
Only in one of the cases you listed did the court even apply the powers granted to it by judicial review (Roe v. Wade). Learn what it means and try again.
Edit: Two, sorry, was unaware of the Missouri Compromise part of
Dred Scott
.
«
Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 09:17:49 pm by Verily
»
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