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| | |-+  Should birthright citizenship include children of illegals?
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No   -13 (30.2%)
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Author Topic: Should birthright citizenship include children of illegals?  (Read 3615 times)
Mechaman
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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2010, 09:30:30 am »
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Yes.

I couldn't think of anything more UnAmerican than denying a child born on American soil American citizenship.

     Agreed. I would suggest relaxing restrictions on immigration, which would greatly reduce the problem of anchor babies.

There is already too much immigration, legal and illegal, into the United States.

There can never be too much immigration.
The United States wouldn't exist without immigrants.  Immigrants are the lifeblood of the United States.

The United States is not the developing nation it once was. We don't need immigrants anymore, and in fact, we take in way too many.

How libertarian of you Libertas, to take the position that says "sorry buddy, no more immigrants allowed.  We're already at our quota."
For me there is no negotiation on the non-aggression principle, we don't use thugs with guns to deny people entry to the US.  Turning back immigrants is a statist policy.

Under a society governed by the non-aggression principle, then every piece of property would be privately owned and individual owners would decide who could and could not enter their property.

Under the current system, if 'we the people' own the country, it is our right to determine who can and cannot enter our property.

Government-enforced open borders is not a libertarian position.

"On rethinking immigration on the basis of the anarcho-capitalist model, it became clear to me that a totally privatized country would not have "open borders" at all. If every piece of land in a country were owned by some person, group, or corporation, this would mean that no immigrant could enter there unless invited to enter and allowed to rent, or purchase, property. A totally privatized country would be as "closed" as the particular inhabitants and property owners desire. It seems clear, then, that the regime of open borders that exists de facto in the U.S. really amounts to a compulsory opening by the central state, the state in charge of all streets and public land areas, and does not genuinely reflect the wishes of the proprietors."
--Murray N. Rothbard, Nations by Consent: Decomposing the Nation-State


Funny that you should quote Murray Rothbard, the same guy who thinks your beloved fetuses are parasites: http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/fourteen.asp

  
Quote from: Murray Rothbard
Another argument of the anti-abortionists is that the fetus is a living human being, and is therefore entitled to all of the rights of human beings. Very good; let us concede, for purposes of the discussion, that fetuses are human beings—or, more broadly, potential human beings—and are therefore entitled to full human rights. But what humans, we may ask, have the right to be coercive parasites within the body of an unwilling human host? Clearly no born humans have such a right, and therefore, a fortiori, the fetus can have no such right either.

And if you want to argue Rothbard's point that individuals have a right to deny people onto their property then fine yes I agree.  However, what I'm arguing against is government enforced immigration laws.  Now let us presume that every square inch of this nation is indeed privatized, would that necessarily make it either open or closed border?  Not really, it would depend on those who are in ownership of the land of the area in question.
Once again, I was arguing against what I perceived as your support for a national immigration enforcement issue, and not a private individual's right as a property owner to enforce their personal property borders.  I'm against using the thugs of government to enforce the border, that is my position.  If an alien comes onto the property of a private property owner then that owner has the right to "deport" them if they so choose off of their land.
Sorry, but when you begin debate by saying "we have too many legal and illegal immigrants", one has to presume you are taking position of pro-government enforcement, something that I'm against.  However, the government has no right to force private property owners to accept what they would consider "illegal immigrants" onto their own private property.  So yes you are right, government enforced open borders (as well as government enforced closed borders) violate individual property rights.
Just because government enforced open borders is not libertarian doesn't make government enforced closed borders libertarian.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 09:45:09 am by The Moderate God »Logged



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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2010, 09:36:05 am »
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Of course. One of the few issues on which America is streets ahead of Europe, and we should keep it.

European countries deport children of {illegal} immigrants?  I wasn't aware illegal immigration was  big problem in Europe.

Uh, wow. Someone has not been paying attention.
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2010, 09:39:36 am »
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Countries with birthright citizenship:

Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Azerbaijan
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Colombia
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Fiji
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Jamaica
Lesotho
Mexico
Nicaragua
Pakistan
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela

The US and Canada are the only two developed countries in the world that have it.
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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2010, 09:42:56 am »
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Of course. One of the few issues on which America is streets ahead of Europe, and we should keep it.

European countries deport children of {illegal} immigrants?  I wasn't aware illegal immigration was  big problem in Europe.

Uh, wow. Someone has not been paying attention.

I hear ya......honestly I don't have a big interest in reading about it but you're right, I'm not paying attention.
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Derek
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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2010, 10:00:51 am »
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No, you should have to pass a test at age 18 about our nation and then you can become a citizen.
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2010, 10:44:32 am »
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I'm surprised there isn't more resentment towards countries such as Sweden and Denmark. They have literally everything yet basically hog it all for themselves. (although they do kindly offer free healthcare for foreign nations, unlike our friendly neighbors to the north).
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2010, 11:16:54 am »
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good luck in the cup finals ^
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2010, 11:25:41 am »
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I believe in jus soli citizenship, totally and firmly.  If you're born here, you're one of us.
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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2010, 01:38:42 pm »
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No. I think that the part of the 14th Amendment regarding birthright citizenship should be amended to specifically exclude illegals and their children. (I'm not asking this from a legal standpoint, but from a personal opinion standpoint.)

so when does citizenship start then?
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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2010, 05:40:57 pm »
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I believe it should. The parent's "sins" shouldn't be a burden on the child.
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« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2010, 10:41:46 pm »
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Somewhere deep inside my conservative heart I do believe that we're all God's children and believe it or not I'm starting to change my view.
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« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2010, 02:02:31 am »
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Countries with birthright citizenship:

Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Azerbaijan
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Colombia
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Fiji
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Jamaica
Lesotho
Mexico
Nicaragua
Pakistan
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela

The US and Canada are the only two developed countries in the world that have it.

Most developed nations have at least some integrity, that's why. The U.S. has none.
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Derek
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« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2010, 03:42:02 am »
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Countries with birthright citizenship:

Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Azerbaijan
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Colombia
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Fiji
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Jamaica
Lesotho
Mexico
Nicaragua
Pakistan
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela

The US and Canada are the only two developed countries in the world that have it.

Most developed nations have at least some integrity, that's why. The U.S. has none.

Which of those other nations would you rather live?
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Mechaman
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« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2010, 08:14:41 am »
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Countries with birthright citizenship:

Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Azerbaijan
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Colombia
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Fiji
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Jamaica
Lesotho
Mexico
Nicaragua
Pakistan
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela

The US and Canada are the only two developed countries in the world that have it.

Most developed nations have at least some integrity, that's why. The U.S. has none.

Denying citizenship to children born in the USA is a sign of a lack of integrity?
As much as I may disagree with some of your other views, your rhetoric on this issue makes me sick.
Oh let me guess: treating these children as equal to US citizens is "statist", denying them citizenship to the country they were born in isn't?
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« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 08:25:37 am by The Moderate God »Logged



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« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2010, 11:01:21 am »
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Of course. One of the few issues on which America is streets ahead of Europe, and we should keep it.

European countries deport children of {illegal} immigrants?
Yes.
Quote
  I wasn't aware illegal immigration was  big problem in Europe.
We call them "asylum seekers", but same thing really. Tongue
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« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2010, 12:05:44 pm »
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Countries with birthright citizenship:

Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Azerbaijan
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Colombia
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Fiji
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Jamaica
Lesotho
Mexico
Nicaragua
Pakistan
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela

The US and Canada are the only two developed countries in the world that have it.

Most developed nations have at least some integrity, that's why. The U.S. has none.

So Israel has some integrity? Weren't you just bashing them for deporting children who were born there?
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« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2010, 07:22:01 am »
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No, you should have to pass a test at age 18 about our nation and then you can become a citizen.

An impoverished, one-armed, retarded, Scotch-Korean from Burkina Faso would have a better chance at passing such a test than you.
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Хahar
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« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2010, 05:16:58 pm »
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There's no such thing as an "illegal".

As for the intent of the question, of course.
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« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2010, 01:46:15 am »
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I believe in jus soli citizenship, totally and firmly.  If you're born here, you're one of us.

^^, yes, without exception. It is simply so much more productive to integration than typical European policy.
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« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2010, 01:48:55 am »
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I'm surprised there isn't more resentment towards countries such as Sweden and Denmark. They have literally everything yet basically hog it all for themselves. (although they do kindly offer free healthcare for foreign nations, unlike our friendly neighbors to the north).

They also hog their astronomical tax rates for themselves....do they not? I'm not that jealous Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2010, 07:22:18 am »
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I believe in jus soli citizenship, totally and firmly.  If you're born here, you're one of us.

I believe it should. The parent's "sins" shouldn't be a burden on the child.

Indeed, I can think of nothing more Un-American than punishing the son for the sins of the father.
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« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2010, 02:03:01 pm »
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Yes.  But then again, I have no problem kicking 2 illegal parents out and keeping the child here.  If they want to stay with the child, they can take their kid back to their home country.
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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2010, 02:14:42 pm »
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Countries with birthright citizenship:

Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Azerbaijan
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Colombia
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Fiji
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Jamaica
Lesotho
Mexico
Nicaragua
Pakistan
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela

The US and Canada are the only two developed countries in the world that have it.

Most developed nations have at least some integrity, that's why. The U.S. has none.

So Israel has some integrity? Weren't you just bashing them for deporting children who were born there?

No, I was bashing them for deporting children because they were the wrong race.
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« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2010, 02:52:56 pm »
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Of course. One of the few issues on which America is streets ahead of Europe, and we should keep it.
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« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2010, 03:56:49 pm »
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No, but then I don't support citizenship solely by virtue of being born on US soil, and hopefully someday the notion that such is Constitutionally mandated will be tested in SCOTUS.
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