Ron Paul Introduces Healthcare Reform

[King]

THIS JUST IN: A tax credit is a form of big government spending.

I'm tired of this full-a-sh**t orgasm people get when the term tax credit is used.

It's just a buzz-word used so Joe Blows like Verpes over here won't feel like the government is giving him a handout when the Treasury cuts him his $1500 "refund check" to pay for his healthcare costs.  Yet if Health and Human Services sent him $1500 written out to Victory Memorial Hospital, he'd cry foul.

[King]

THIS JUST IN: A tax credit is a form of big government spending.

I'm tired of this full-a-sh**t orgasm people get when the term tax credit is used.

It's just a buzz-word used so Joe Blows like Verpes over here won't feel like the government is giving him a handout when the Treasury cuts him his $1500 "refund check" to pay for his healthcare costs.  Yet if Health and Human Services sent him $1500 written out to Victory Memorial Hospital, he'd cry foul.

They give you the money, but you get to choose how it is spent on health, not the government. Besides, tax cuts are not really a handout, but an exemption from taxes. Thus government collects less money.

Except the government collects it and then you file for it.  So the government is writing a check to people to pay for costs.

And if you can only get the credit based on the costs, then you would have to already be billed to get it.  So you aren't choosing anything when you receive this money.  The choice has to already have been made.

[King]

So is he advocating singlepayer or am I misunderstanding what a tax credit does?

That's what I'm thinking.  Maybe us health care liberals should just go along with it.

Might as well sell the left over chicken fried steak as dark meat, eh Lief?

THIS JUST IN: A tax credit is a form of big government spending.

I'm tired of this full-a-sh**t orgasm people get when the term tax credit is used.

It's just a buzz-word used so Joe Blows like Verpes over here won't feel like the government is giving him a handout when the Treasury cuts him his $1500 "refund check" to pay for his healthcare costs.  Yet if Health and Human Services sent him $1500 written out to Victory Memorial Hospital, he'd cry foul.

They give you the money, but you get to choose how it is spent on health, not the government. Besides, tax cuts are not really a handout, but an exemption from taxes. Thus government collects less money.

Except the government collects it and then you file for it.  So the government is writing a check to people to pay for costs.

And if you can only get the credit based on the costs, then you would have to already be billed to get it.  So you aren't choosing anything when you receive this money.  The choice has to already have been made.

Yeah, but YOU made the choice.

Unless you are paying your medical costs out of pocket (lol), no you did not. Some dude working for an insurance company did.

Yep.  Ron is selling socialized medicine with everything renamed to protect the innocent.

[King]

THIS JUST IN: A tax credit is a form of big government spending.

I'm tired of this full-a-sh**t orgasm people get when the term tax credit is used.

It's just a buzz-word used so Joe Blows like Verpes over here won't feel like the government is giving him a handout when the Treasury cuts him his $1500 "refund check" to pay for his healthcare costs.  Yet if Health and Human Services sent him $1500 written out to Victory Memorial Hospital, he'd cry foul.

They give you the money, but you get to choose how it is spent on health, not the government. Besides, tax cuts are not really a handout, but an exemption from taxes. Thus government collects less money.

Except the government collects it and then you file for it.  So the government is writing a check to people to pay for costs.

And if you can only get the credit based on the costs, then you would have to already be billed to get it.  So you aren't choosing anything when you receive this money.  The choice has to already have been made.

Yeah, but YOU made the choice.

Unless you are paying your medical costs out of pocket (lol), no you did not. Some dude working for an insurance company did.

And you, not the government, decided what you're insurance is. Since you decided what your insurance is, you can choose where you go.

So... single payer.

Unless you choose to stumble into a Kaiser ER with your stab wound and you have Blue Cross, then you'll have to choose to wait for a cab.

[King]

1. Uh, no. Is the government mandating you have insurance?

2. Is the government giving you other people's money, or your money?

3. Is the government monopolizing health insurance policy?

4. Are they telling doctors what they will or will not cover? No, they dole out the money,

5. but they make no decisions or policies, the companies do and you choose the company.

(1) No, actually, it makes all health care free by giving tax return checks for any health care cost.  If anything, it might discourage the rich from even bothering to get health insurance if an injury means having to pay no taxes.  Who needs to give to charity when you can just get regular checkups to pay your taxes?  

That also makes health insurance a loser's business with only lower working middle class clients (not poor enough for Medicaid, not old enough to Medicare, and not rich enough to pay on tax credits) and likely causes the market to consolidate and creates less choice.

(2) It's giving me the people's money.  I doubt they save my payroll and income taxes in a little envelope until I file my return.  The $x I get will be from the pool of revenues they collect every year.  Or do you not understand monetary circulation?

(3) By pretty much making anything that isn't low-premium, high-deductible insurance that only services lower middle-class consumers non-competitive, I say that it is.

(4) You've just described how the British National Health Service works.

(5) They pressure you into certain plans as mentioned in #3.

[King]

(4) You've just described how the British National Health Service works.

You obviously have no idea how the NHS works. They have committees decide what treatments are acceptable financially. (This is different than death panels, they ban types of treatmens.).

Yes.  These committees are currently located in those beautiful skyscrapers with "Kaiser Permanente" written on them.  

You have one point, we do get to choose which committee hears our case.  But as a I said in #1, choice of committee will likely decrease as the market consolidates and demand for health insurance dips.

[King]

Look, I'm not saying Paul's plan is amazing, but it sure as Hell better than what you lefties think.

And I'm just saying it's a single-payer national health insurance program with slightly modified means of administration--in that it's run out of the Treasury-to-providers instead of HHS-to-providers.  Likely, taxes would be raised to cover the ENORMOUS loss of revenue by this program.  As opposed to taxes would be raised to cover the ENORMOUS increase in spending by this program.

Oh and it gets banks into the wonderful world of insurance.  I'm sure no financial institution can pass up the "finance your large healthcare bill and pay it off with your tax credit instead of paying premiums" game.

I support this plan because it gets people right of the center to believe in something the left is arguing for and feel justified.  That's the definition of compromise right there.

[King]

Yes, Verpes I know I know I know.  But I didn't wanna just waste that heartfelt paragraph I wrote.  And I'm saying that's single-payer, perhaps with weaker regulations.

All in all, King, Paul's plan isn't so great. I think that people should just be responsible for themselves, pay out of pocket for most things, and give those who cannot afford it support.

But Verpes, let me ask you this: isn't telling people to be responsible for themselves while giving support to those who can't the very nature just sharing the wealth?

It's not just in this thread, Verpes, but it sounds to me like you hold a very leftist ideology deep inside your heart.  You just hate the language of liberalism and find comfort in hearing conservative rhetoric.  Everything you always stand for is just socialism wearing a hat.

Well, no. Not really. There is a committee that decides what drugs it makes sense to be funded for by taxpayers money (but it doesn't decide on the legality of drugs), but that's only a very minor part of the system. NICE isn't perfect, but most criticism of it is astroturfing from the pharmaceutical industry. Almost all of the running of the service - and spending decisions - is done within NHS Trusts. Central government (and NICE is operationally seperate from that) mostly decides how much money the service gets, while also drawing up strategic and general policy stuff.

NICE sounds like a beefed up FDA.

[King]

Libertas spoke the truth!  But unfortunately, it contradicts the word of his cultmaster Ron Paul.

Le sigh.

[King]

it's much easier to own someone whose dumb arguments are based on bad logic than no logic at all.

Except it isn't. Sorry.

[King]

Hey, if Ron Paul and the tea partiers want to pass this national single-payer healthcare bill, I'll put on an XXL American flag T-shirt, draw up a poorly-spelled, vaguely offensive sign and bring a gun to the next protest!

Hey, glad to hear you're now down with repealing ObamaCare.

If it means switching to something even more left-wing, hells yeah!

[King]

Hey, if Ron Paul and the tea partiers want to pass this national single-payer healthcare bill, I'll put on an XXL American flag T-shirt, draw up a poorly-spelled, vaguely offensive sign and bring a gun to the next protest!

Hey, glad to hear you're now down with repealing ObamaCare.

If it means switching to something even more left-wing, hells yeah!

The bill Dr. Paul proposed is not "left-wing".

More left-wing then "ObamaCare".

Si, Obamacare es muy compromised joke.