God created evil

[fezzyfestoon]

I had a really long (inebriated) conversation with my very Baptist best friend last night about where evil came from.  She tried to find it in the Bible, but no luck.  I was curious as to what any of you guys who know the Bible a little better than I do know about where it came from.  I know that the tree gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil, and that Satan is like the evil-meister, but if God created everything then how could something purely good create the opposite?  It says that Satan was perfectly created, but obviously either that's not true or God purposefully created evil, making him less than pure good.

[fezzyfestoon]

Ah, sorry.  I forgot I posted this.  I'm gonna go through, I'm really interested in your different perspectives.

God created all things good. Evil is not its own nature, but rather, the absence of God, and thus, the absence of good.


An analogy would be that "cold" does not really exist, but is simply the absence of heat.

How can something be without God if he created everything?  And if everything is evil without God, isn't everything then inherently evil?  You can't be born God-fearing and completely Christian and animals certainly can't be.

[fezzyfestoon]

Evil exists in order for us to recognize a greater good. If we were simply happy all the time or things were always perfect, then we wouldn't be aware of such perfection. Furthermore, it is what we consider evil to be that we are dealing with here. Things happen that generate a negative response from individuals; aids in Africa, war in the middle east, children with terminal illnesses, dead puppies. These things are just as much part of life as that which generates a positive response from individuals; weddings, birth of a child, helping at a retirement home, mentoring students. Many would argue that there isn't evil but evil is a state of mind the same as one can be in the state of happiness.

Things that happen aren't evil, things we do are evil.  Killing, lying, stealing, cruelty.  The question isn't what is and isn't evil, but how it got there.  It certainly exists, so who created it?  If God is all good how could he create evil?  And if he did then how is he all good?

[fezzyfestoon]

That being said, my view on evil is more philosophical than it is explicitly theological, because even in the collected writings that we call "The Bible" you find a wide array of views on the nature of good and evil, from strict monism (in the Pentateuch) to all out dualism (in the New Testament).  Simply put, I believe in what you might call a "Black and Gray" reality, with actions and people that are truly evil, and then those that inhabit various zones of goodness, or acceptability; but you will never find a perfect good, either individually, or in action, because such a thing is impossible, the best you will find is a person who doing their best and failing much of the time.  Finding something (short of God) that represents a perfect good is, at the least, a oneway ticket to disappointment, at the least, and delusional in most cases.  Even by doing good, people are going to commit at least some sin, active or through negligence.

And so the real root of all evil is pride.  Not only is the idea of a perfect good diluted, it is evil itself, because people who believe, or think they are acting for the absolute good, or are even good incarnate, are also the people who tend to be capable of the most evil actions.  Too much pride equals a lack of remorse, because one who thinks they are absolutely correct sees no need to examine their own shortcomings.

So how can a perfectly good being create evil?  How does it exist if in him it never existed?  If God can't do it or be it, how can anything he creates be that or do that?  He is then not all powerful if he gives his creations the ability to do and be something he cannot.  If he is all good wouldn't he only create good?

[fezzyfestoon]

'Good' and 'Evil' are inherent in humans as highly sentient primates. No deity has 'endowed' us with them; they are innate.

Well, clearly.  But we're making the massive assumption in the question that a higher power does exist, God in particular as described in the Bible.

[fezzyfestoon]

By definition, it is clear because by definition all is from God. This includes evil.

You're assuming that this God thing exists, and you're assuming that there could only be one source for things to come from, so until you can prove both of those things you can't say that with certainty.

Ok and if there are more sources, eventually those sources had to come from something and so forth. If you don't believe in God then you don't really have a point in posting here. This thread is for people to debate if God did or did not create evil.  Evil as I see it is a state of mind and by definition yes even ideas come from God on that level. This does not make God evil but makes it so that God was the root of ideas as well. Evil is an idea.

Uh...I created the thread and I don't believe in God.  I don't have a problem with him posting here, for the record.

[fezzyfestoon]

God created a perfect man. That man became evil on his own will. It was not God.

What I asked is how that evil option exists if God created everything and God is perfectly good.  Only God can create, man didn't come up with evil on its own.

[fezzyfestoon]

God created a perfect man. That man became evil on his own will. It was not God.

What I asked is how that evil option exists if God created everything and God is perfectly good.  Only God can create, man didn't come up with evil on its own.

Read what I posted in the creation thread of this forum. You'll find part of your answer there.

I didn't, and...

We get it, you're an agnostic and that's cool but we get it. You're talking all day about nothing and coming to no conclusions.

I've come to the conclusion that you're incapable of debating your way out of a paper bag. Does that count? Seriously, you can't refute the things I say so you just start accusing me of being unable to come to a conclusion, so you use straw men arguments as a cover. Pathetic.

Do you have any of your own ideas?

...what?

[fezzyfestoon]

The only thing that is inherently sinful is deviation from the will of God. The free choice and human faculties given to Adam resulted in his decision to disobey God. God knew this obviously, as he is omniscient, but that doesn't make him culpable. Having created something tabula rasa, he is free from the creation of sin.

I assume what you're referring to when you said that God created Lucifer as perfect, you're referring to Ezekiel 28(a use of the king of Tyre as an allegory for Satan and probably for mankind in general). It says that he was blameless until unrighteousness was found in him. I can only assume to take this as Satan, and humanity, being perfect in creation because he(or they) had not yet rebelled against God. If sin is a lack of obedience to God, and goodness/blamelessness/perfection is the lack of pride and disobedience, then everything God created at its outset is good.

Unlike Satan, however, God has chosen to save those humans who will accept the sacrifice found in Christ's atonement.

Some hyper-Calvinists (who consider Calvin a heretic, funnily enough), will argue that God is the author of sin, but unfortunately like so many groups out there they've taken certain Bible passages and twisted them for their own ends, such as those that speak of God hardening certain people's hearts, and particularly and frustratingly 2 Cor 4: 3-4. This passage is a good argument for authentic "Calvinism", but when read the wrong way can lead you to ridiculous conclusions that are out of step with the rest of scripture.

How did God not know that was there and who put it there if he didn't?  It's God's world, is it not?  So what other possibilities could his creations see but the way he did things?

What are you confused about?

How is that not clear?

[fezzyfestoon]

The post I quoted:

Do you have any of your own ideas?

My asking of "what" was a pretty straight-forward request for clarification on where he demonstrated he didn't.

[fezzyfestoon]

The post I quoted:

Do you have any of your own ideas?

My asking of "what" was a pretty straight-forward request for clarification on where he demonstrated he didn't.

I was talking to John Dibble from GA.

YES. I KNOW. HENCE THE "HE".

[fezzyfestoon]

Well he doesn't answer much all that he does is question everyone to the point of doubting whether or not something actually happened.

I'm not seeing how that connects to him allegedly not having any thoughts of his own.