Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 28, 2016, 07:13:55 pm
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Please delete your old personal messages.

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
| |-+  Presidential Election Process (Moderator: muon2)
| | |-+  National Popular Vote Interstate Compact
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] Print
Poll
Question: Could it actually succeed ?
Yes
No
Show Pie Chart

Author Topic: National Popular Vote Interstate Compact  (Read 11017 times)
muon2
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11507


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2010, 11:32:45 pm »

Mass becomes the 6th state to join this unconstitutional compact, the 6 states account for 73 of the 270 EV needed to bring the compact into force.

I wonder how they would feel about their electors going to a President-elect Palin Tongue

I've long thought the same thing, but applied to a situation where Obama might lose in 2012. Would IL really be willing to see its electors go against the favorite son?
Logged



2016 PVI map of the Electoral College, with each state's size proportional to its vote in the EC. Grey states are even (PVI 0 or 1), pale states are lean-likely (PVI 2 through 5), dark states are solid (PVI 6 or more).
I did not see L.A.
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 40019
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -4.87


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2010, 05:46:22 am »
Ignore

Mass becomes the 6th state to join this unconstitutional compact, the 6 states account for 73 of the 270 EV needed to bring the compact into force.

I wonder how they would feel about their electors going to a President-elect Palin Tongue

I've long thought the same thing, but applied to a situation where Obama might lose in 2012. Would IL really be willing to see its electors go against the favorite son?

In a right world, any State should be willing to "give" his electors to the candidate the people has chosen.
Logged


"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

-- Ted Kennedy
muon2
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11507


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2010, 08:15:31 am »

Mass becomes the 6th state to join this unconstitutional compact, the 6 states account for 73 of the 270 EV needed to bring the compact into force.

I wonder how they would feel about their electors going to a President-elect Palin Tongue

I've long thought the same thing, but applied to a situation where Obama might lose in 2012. Would IL really be willing to see its electors go against the favorite son?

In a right world, any State should be willing to "give" his electors to the candidate the people has chosen.

No, the notion of electors is akin to delegates at a convention or members within a parliament. People elect those delegates from individual constituencies to represent themselves, not to represent the whole of the public outside the constituency. A delegate at a nominating convention is there to vote for the candidate supported by a majority in the district - particularly on the first ballot. A parliamentary member would be expected to not vote for another party's prime minister, even though a majority of the nation supported that other party.

My point is that even if the legislature has determined that they want to select electors based on the popular vote, many in the public will feel cheated if they didn't get to see their electors reflect the will of the public in their state. I would anticipate that this feeling would be stronger when a candidate is from that state.
Logged



2016 PVI map of the Electoral College, with each state's size proportional to its vote in the EC. Grey states are even (PVI 0 or 1), pale states are lean-likely (PVI 2 through 5), dark states are solid (PVI 6 or more).
I did not see L.A.
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 40019
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -4.87


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2010, 01:33:03 pm »
Ignore

Maybe, but the Presidential election isn't a legislative election. The Electoral College isn't a permanent body with legislative power, it's made simply for the sake of electing the President. And I don't see why the people shouldn't be able to choose its president directly. The reason given by founding fathers made sense at the time, as the people probably wasn't mature enough for direct democracy, and electors could be a mitigating factor. But now, there aren't anymore : they simply reflect the will of the people in their State. Or more exactly they unexactly represent the will of a more or less great plurality of the voters of each State. What's the point of that ?
Logged


"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

-- Ted Kennedy
muon2
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 11507


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2010, 01:18:49 am »

Maybe, but the Presidential election isn't a legislative election. The Electoral College isn't a permanent body with legislative power, it's made simply for the sake of electing the President. And I don't see why the people shouldn't be able to choose its president directly. The reason given by founding fathers made sense at the time, as the people probably wasn't mature enough for direct democracy, and electors could be a mitigating factor. But now, there aren't anymore : they simply reflect the will of the people in their State. Or more exactly they unexactly represent the will of a more or less great plurality of the voters of each State. What's the point of that ?

And my answer remains that a directly elected president should come with a majority vote requirement and a runoff of the top two in case of no majority. Either the system is modeled on delegate selection like the current EC, or it should be a true majority vote system like France. I find the NPVIC to be the worst of both worlds.
Logged



2016 PVI map of the Electoral College, with each state's size proportional to its vote in the EC. Grey states are even (PVI 0 or 1), pale states are lean-likely (PVI 2 through 5), dark states are solid (PVI 6 or more).
I did not see L.A.
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 40019
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -4.87


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2010, 08:52:41 am »
Ignore

Maybe, but the Presidential election isn't a legislative election. The Electoral College isn't a permanent body with legislative power, it's made simply for the sake of electing the President. And I don't see why the people shouldn't be able to choose its president directly. The reason given by founding fathers made sense at the time, as the people probably wasn't mature enough for direct democracy, and electors could be a mitigating factor. But now, there aren't anymore : they simply reflect the will of the people in their State. Or more exactly they unexactly represent the will of a more or less great plurality of the voters of each State. What's the point of that ?

And my answer remains that a directly elected president should come with a majority vote requirement and a runoff of the top two in case of no majority. Either the system is modeled on delegate selection like the current EC, or it should be a true majority vote system like France. I find the NPVIC to be the worst of both worlds.

NPVIC is inperfect, but still a progress compared to the current electoral college. But once it will be passed, I'd not be surprised than after a couple of decades an Amendment establishing national popular vote will be ratified, probably with a runoff provision.
Logged


"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

-- Ted Kennedy
Nichlemn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1830


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2010, 05:20:43 am »
Ignore

Mass becomes the 6th state to join this unconstitutional compact, the 6 states account for 73 of the 270 EV needed to bring the compact into force.

I wonder how they would feel about their electors going to a President-elect Palin Tongue

I've long thought the same thing, but applied to a situation where Obama might lose in 2012. Would IL really be willing to see its electors go against the favorite son?

In a right world, any State should be willing to "give" his electors to the candidate the people has chosen.

No, the notion of electors is akin to delegates at a convention or members within a parliament. People elect those delegates from individual constituencies to represent themselves, not to represent the whole of the public outside the constituency. A delegate at a nominating convention is there to vote for the candidate supported by a majority in the district - particularly on the first ballot. A parliamentary member would be expected to not vote for another party's prime minister, even though a majority of the nation supported that other party.

My point is that even if the legislature has determined that they want to select electors based on the popular vote, many in the public will feel cheated if they didn't get to see their electors reflect the will of the public in their state. I would anticipate that this feeling would be stronger when a candidate is from that state.

Well, this would need to solved with education. If the NPVIC comes into effect, then electoral votes are purely symbolic.
Logged

zorkpolitics
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1066
United States


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2010, 05:32:58 am »
Ignore

There is a fair amount of speculation that an Obama-Palin contest in 2012 would encourage Bloomberg to jump in and spend a billion or two.  Bloomberg could possibly win several states perhaps NY, NJ, CT, FL, and/or CA. This might result in no candidate getting 270 EV which, under the 12th amendment, would then send the election to the House.  However, if the National Popular Vote Compact had passed, then the 12th amendment would never come into play.  Thus this multi-state law would render a Constitutional Amendment null and void.
States can not avoid the Constitution by joint laws, hence it would seem the National Popular Vote Compact would be quickly judged unconstitutional.
Logged

"Scientists are treacherous allies on committees, for they are apt to change their minds in response to arguments" C.M. Bowra
Franzl
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22384
Germany


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2010, 09:45:30 am »
Ignore

There is a fair amount of speculation that an Obama-Palin contest in 2012 would encourage Bloomberg to jump in and spend a billion or two.  Bloomberg could possibly win several states perhaps NY, NJ, CT, FL, and/or CA. This might result in no candidate getting 270 EV which, under the 12th amendment, would then send the election to the House.  However, if the National Popular Vote Compact had passed, then the 12th amendment would never come into play.  Thus this multi-state law would render a Constitutional Amendment null and void.
States can not avoid the Constitution by joint laws, hence it would seem the National Popular Vote Compact would be quickly judged unconstitutional.

So much stupidity in one post...

Logged
I did not see L.A.
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 40019
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -4.87


View Profile
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2010, 01:30:25 pm »
Ignore

Since you bother posting the same thing twice, I will too.

That's a totally fallacious argument. If passed, the NPVIC would de facto nullify the 12th Amendment, but absolutely nothing in the NPVIC is explicitely contrary to the 12th Amendment. The 12th Amentment never states that there must be cases where its provision applies. Imagine the constitution says "any flying pig shall have its wings cut". If you interpret it the same way you interpret the 12th Amendment, it would imply "flying pigs shall exist".
Logged


"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

-- Ted Kennedy
Pages: 1 2 [3] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines