The Curious Case of Alvin Greene

[jimrtex]

In the 1930 census, I have "Green" being 66.0% white, while "Greene" is 79.3% white.  Obviously, there are big caveats on this (namely, that the census had names written down by enumerators, who often didn't ask for spellings of names... woe upon those who were illiterate ), but... at least it's data rather than anecdote.

Is this for South Carolina or the US?

There could be big regional differences.  If there is a large slave plantation like you had in South Carolina, then it would be like some Mormon polygamist with dozens of "children" who have his surname.

I think that Greene would be a favored spelling in South Carolina (and perhaps much of the US, because of Nathanael Greene, who was head of American forces in the south during the Revolution.

There are counties named for Greene in NY, PA, VA, NC, GA, AL, MS, AR, TN, KY, OH, IN, IL, WI, MO, and IA.  Practically every state that had any counties to be named after someone, up through about the mid 19th century named a county for him.  Greenville, South Carolina and Greensboro, NC are both named for him.

So if you weren't sure how your name was spelled, you might be more likely to choose Greene, if that is the way it was spelled in your history books.

[Vasall des Midas]

US of course.

If there is a large slave plantation like you had in South Carolina, then it would be like some Mormon polygamist with dozens of "children" who have his surname.

No. People on one plantation (provided they hadn't broken down in the war anyways) didn't all get one surname, presumably their owners.
Rather, the pattern of surname adoption (in SC - the state studied. I'm doing this from memory) is vaguely reminiscent of Frederick Douglass' dictum of "give a man a bad master, and he will aspire to a good master" - virtually noone took their last owner's name (and those who did were basically making a direct statement about their biological father's identity), but most people took the names of former owners, relatives or business aquaintances of their owners, or other major slaveholders in the same region. (Which are categories with gigantic overlap anyways.)

[useful idiot]

And to think that the state was Black majority for much of that period...

It's actually quite tragic obviously, but (and this is a question to anyone) why hasn't there been a black Democrat on the ballot for senate or governor? You'd think since the 70's that it would have happened since so many of the Democratic voters there are black. I mean, sure the good old boy network was probably still in place in the 70s and 80s, but if blacks were voting in primaries then why hasn't this happened in the last 20 years?

Virginia elected a black governor in 1990. Harvey Gantt was the Dem nominee for senate twice in North Carolina in 90 and 96. Andrew Young was almost the senate candidate in Georgia in 1990, and Denise Majette was in 2004. There was a black nominee for gov in Mississippi in 2000, Troy Brown. We all know about Harold Ford. The senate nominee in Alabama in 08 was a black woman. There were two black gubernatorial nominees in Louisiana in the 90s. Am I missing any?

[Vasall des Midas]

Well in SC, one of the Senate seats was of course taken by Fritz Hollings until quite recently. But why Strom Thurmond never had a Black sacrificial lamb against him... I dunno.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I find it rather amusing that nobody bothered to explain, or at least speculate, how this guy found the money to file for election and why he even decided to do that.

I mean, the guy is an indigent accused for felony but all of a sudden decides that it would be a good idea to run for the US Senate? What's wrong with this picture?

[Sewer]

I mean, the guy is an indigent accused for felony but all of a sudden decides that it would be a good idea to run for the US Senate?

He's crazy?

[Lunar]

Px, have you read my comments in this thread at all?

He qualified for a public defender a few months ago, and to do that you have to basically prove in court that you don't have 10k in the bank, and he's been unemployed since.  And on top of that, he spent no time actually campaigning despite that massive investment

[Vasall des Midas]

I'm actually more interested in why it costs that kind of money to file for election? Seems it's not even a deposit? How can that be constitutional in any democracy? Pretty perv.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Px, have you read my comments in this thread at all?

He qualified for a public defender a few months ago, and to do that you have to basically prove in court that you don't have 10k in the bank, and he's been unemployed since.  And on top of that, he spent no time actually campaigning despite that massive investment

I've read them. But our Republican forumites seem to ignore all these bizarre facts and focus on strawmen like voter fraud.

[Former Moderate]

Px, have you read my comments in this thread at all?

He qualified for a public defender a few months ago, and to do that you have to basically prove in court that you don't have 10k in the bank, and he's been unemployed since.  And on top of that, he spent no time actually campaigning despite that massive investment

I've read them. But our Republican forumites seem to ignore all these bizarre facts and focus on strawmen like voter fraud.

It's also really hard to get outraged over "maybe something bad happened here." Especially when the result has no impact on who wins in November.

If someone finds some actual evidence of wrong doing, then we'll have a story going.

[ilikeverin]

In the 1930 census, I have "Green" being 66.0% white, while "Greene" is 79.3% white.  Obviously, there are big caveats on this (namely, that the census had names written down by enumerators, who often didn't ask for spellings of names... woe upon those who were illiterate ), but... at least it's data rather than anecdote.

Is this for South Carolina or the US?

There could be big regional differences.  If there is a large slave plantation like you had in South Carolina, then it would be like some Mormon polygamist with dozens of "children" who have his surname.

I think that Greene would be a favored spelling in South Carolina (and perhaps much of the US, because of Nathanael Greene, who was head of American forces in the south during the Revolution.

There are counties named for Greene in NY, PA, VA, NC, GA, AL, MS, AR, TN, KY, OH, IN, IL, WI, MO, and IA.  Practically every state that had any counties to be named after someone, up through about the mid 19th century named a county for him.  Greenville, South Carolina and Greensboro, NC are both named for him.

So if you weren't sure how your name was spelled, you might be more likely to choose Greene, if that is the way it was spelled in your history books.

Nice hypothesis, but...

White Greens: 571
Black Greens: 2308
White Greenes: 139
Black Greenes: 176

(in 1930.  caveats apply)

"Greene", in general, is a much less common last name than "Green".

[So the Heroes Fall]

I'm actually more interested in why it costs that kind of money to file for election? Seems it's not even a deposit? How can that be constitutional in any democracy? Pretty perv.

I'm more bothered by the fact that you can be denied a public defender if you aren't poor enough.

As for why the deposit is so high though, remember that this is South Carolina, which has never exactly been a bastion of good democratic practices. They can't get away with the poll taxes anymore but this is different.

[I left.]

I'm more bothered by the fact that you can be denied a public defender if you aren't poor enough.

I've never heard of a law like that in any other state before.....is South Carolina unique?

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

If this election ever does become close (and I mean this without scandals or similar anomalies), SC has some serious problems to take care of.

[useful idiot]

I think we're really missing something here when we call him crazy or slow. He did graduate from the University of South Carolina, which stereotypes aside, is a really good school. After that he was an intelligence officer in the military. I don't know for a fact he was an officer, he might have been enlisted, but every site is saying he was in the Air Force and Army for 13 years, and if he graduated college in 2000 I assume he did ROTC. Plus the circumstances would lead me to believe that he was an officer; usually the Army doesn't just give involuntarily honorable discharges to slow people that are enlisted.

So how did this guy accomplish those two things? The mystery to me is squaring the two facts that we have: a) he graduated from college and was intel in the Air Force and Army, and b) he's obviously got something wrong with him.

If he was in the Army for the entire last decade he had to have been to Iraq, he just had to. If not then he would have been in Afghanistan at least. Why have we only heard about him serving in Korea? Is this a case of PTSD that the Army just sort of washed it's hands of? Hopefully we here more about this because the media has been a failure in reporting on it so far.

[Former Moderate]

If this election ever does become close (and I mean this without scandals or similar anomalies), SC has some serious problems to take care of.

The "serious problem" here mostly stems from a SC Democratic Party that's unable to run a candidate for State Senate who's unable to beat, essentially, a nobody with an attractive sounding last name.

If Greene is indeed a Republican shell candidate, then the SC GOP needs lessons on how to better run shell candidates.

[Lunar]

Well, this is an issue because there seems to be SOMETHING shady going on, and while DeMint will be reelected, I think it deserves sorting out.

[useful idiot]

I'm more bothered by the fact that you can be denied a public defender if you aren't poor enough.

I've never heard of a law like that in any other state before.....is South Carolina unique?

It's like that in a lot of states, including Virginia.

[Sibboleth]

I'm actually more interested in why it costs that kind of money to file for election? Seems it's not even a deposit? How can that be constitutional in any democracy? Pretty perv.

Yeah, that's a disgusting little detail. I suppose the justification is some bullshit along the lines of 'the costs of running the election'.

[Lunar]

Sometimes parties also allow a petitioning alternative, like Kendrick Meek forwent the $5,000 fee and collected the thousands of signatures instead.  It's a fee that the South Carolina Democratic Party charges for automatic ballot access on a statewide, federal race, not sure if there is a petitioning alternative.

[So the Heroes Fall]

That's how most states do it. In Minnesota you need either 2000 signatures or a $400 fee for Senate, and that's the stiffest requirement for any office. I'm not sure how many signatures SC requires, but that is a pretty draconian filing fee regardless.

[Former Moderate]

Well, this is an issue because there seems to be SOMETHING shady going on, and while DeMint will be reelected, I think it deserves sorting out.

I think this is likely a case where Democrats want there to be a lot more to this than there is. Obviously, there are a lot of talented, well-paid folks taking a look at Greene and what happened in this election, so you may still get your answer. You seem to be the only one asking the right questions.

I think that the other question -- how can one guy no one knows beat some other guy no one knows -- is pretty ridiculous. Despite that, though, Dave Axelrod and other Democrats seem to be focusing on it.

[nhmagic]

This story is sad.  It's amazing to me how all the dems are trying to question this guys background as if he isn't good enough to be on their ticket.  It's pretty close to racist with some of the questions in the media like where did this black man get his money?  He's a republican plant. etc.

No one seemed to be asking these questions when dems were electing another certain black man who came from nowhere and had an even shadier background than Greene.

[Vasall des Midas]

Some of it may be to do with the fact that Greene is Black, not mixed.

But... well... for a total nobody to be a Senate paper candidate? Not state house, county sheriff (of a major county), whatever? When's the last time that happened? Great Depression era?

[Rowan]

The guy is unemployed. What unemployed regular joe has $10,000 sitting around that they can spend on a run for the US Senate that they have no intention of doing any campaigning for! It's like throwing money in the trash.