My journey to athiesm.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Jmfsct I'm bored so I will debate with your logical absurdities knowing that have as much good as banging my head against a concrete head repeatedly until the end of the time.

Considering you do know something about scripture, this is a pretty ignorant strawman argument since the bible never offers “proof” to the masses, but rather the only thing it offers is the testimony of others.  Such proof would immediately invalidate the gift of faith, which would leave only works and would therefore close the pathway to salvation.

So the appeal of your religion is in its improvability. That's wonderful. You have given no reason to have faith except to point out its obvious extrinsic truth.... which does not seem like obvious extrinsic truth to me.

Imagine I am a Muslim. I hold that everything in the Qu'ran is infalliable and true. My evidence for this is... the Qu'ran which tells me everything in the Qu'ran is true. This, as I'm sure you know Jmfsct, is a logical fallacy known as "the argument from authority".

Under this argument therefore is no way of showing how one text is more true than the other. There is no way to compare texts and say one is more than the others except by a priori accepting that one is already more true than the others.

So Jmfsct the challenge therefore for you is to explain me without recourse to the good book why I should have faith and your faith in particular. I want you to elaborate for me on this very topic or else I remain skeptical.

But what you can't argue is that because of your personal subjective experience you have some superior knowledge to me that validates your faith. You can't say "I had this experience therefore I became a believer therefore God is true" because many people here haven't had that sort of experience and thus have no personal-subjective reason to believe in God. Then you will be forced to show how your own experience is superior to the non-believers here - and how can you prove that one's subjectivity is better than anothers? Why should I hold that because you had an experience (which I of course can't experience) that means I should believe? On what basis are you priviledging yourself over others... (and no Jmfsct you can't argue "Because I am believer" that's pure circular logic. You're quite good at that btw).

(A side note: Could we ever have a religious text which said something like... "large parts of this are fiction and other bits are true. But I'm not telling you which. Guess". Perhaps the Guessing would become the essential part of that religion yet unknown to man).

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

So Jmfsct the challenge therefore for you is to explain me without recourse to the good book why I should have faith and your faith in particular. I want you to elaborate for me on this very topic or else I remain skeptical.

your whole basis is incorrect.  Faith is a gift from God, it is NOT a choice one makes.  I can't think of a scripture that instructs people to "choose faith" because the two words simply do not go together.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

So Jmfsct the challenge therefore for you is to explain me without recourse to the good book why I should have faith and your faith in particular. I want you to elaborate for me on this very topic or else I remain skeptical.

your whole basis is incorrect.  Faith is a gift from God, it is NOT a choice one makes.  I can't think of a scripture that instructs people to "choose faith" because the two words simply do not go together.

Oh okay then. Then explain why God has chosen some people to have faith and not others. Surely God would prefer some select group of his creation over others (and if so then this God is pretty illogical and one I find rather uninteresting and tyranical).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

That said, I don't agree with afleitch's conclusion that a rejection of deistic supremacy is logically sufficient to support an embrace of atheism.  I think both he and that street preacher he mentioned missed the point by focusing too much on God the King, and not enough on God the Father.

Without having to rely upon any scripture, one can make some basic inferences about the nature of a benevolent deity.  Such a being would have considerably more experience than any human could possibly hope to have, experience he could use to fashion a code of conduct that it would be to our benefit to follow, and which if he is benevolent would desire to make known to humanity in a fashion that humanity can comprehend.  Yet, just as sometimes a parent needs to tell his child "No" because the child is not capable of comprehending the reason why doing something is a really bad idea, it is not unreasonable that a benevolent deity might have to at times resort to such a method.

Actually it was very much focused on 'God the Father.' Which is why such a relationship for eternity ending (or beginning depending on how you look at it) with being 'fused' with a creator and loosing your own independence is horrifying. I do not wish to have the relationship with a god that I had with my own father when I was 5.

And to pick up a point, I see no reason to believe particularly from the Bible, Koran etc that their deity is in any way 'benevolent.'

I imagine that a five-year old child doesn't think that their parent is being benevolent when they don't buy them an ice-cream cone or the latest toy whenever they ask.  However, if the relationship is indeed analogous to that of a parent and a five-year old, then what you are seemingly demanding is the right to forever remain a five-year old instead of accepting guidance on how to grow up.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

So Jmfsct the challenge therefore for you is to explain me without recourse to the good book why I should have faith and your faith in particular. I want you to elaborate for me on this very topic or else I remain skeptical.

your whole basis is incorrect.  Faith is a gift from God, it is NOT a choice one makes.  I can't think of a scripture that instructs people to "choose faith" because the two words simply do not go together.

Oh okay then. Then explain why God has chosen some people to have faith and not others. Surely God would prefer some select group of his creation over others (and if so then this God is pretty illogical and one I find rather uninteresting and tyranical).

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%209&version=NIV

[Tetro Kornbluth]

So Jmfsct the challenge therefore for you is to explain me without recourse to the good book why I should have faith and your faith in particular. I want you to elaborate for me on this very topic or else I remain skeptical.

your whole basis is incorrect.  Faith is a gift from God, it is NOT a choice one makes.  I can't think of a scripture that instructs people to "choose faith" because the two words simply do not go together.

Oh okay then. Then explain why God has chosen some people to have faith and not others. Surely God would prefer some select group of his creation over others (and if so then this God is pretty illogical and one I find rather uninteresting and tyranical).

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%209&version=NIV

God is a funny fellow in the people he chooses. He might even be a racist.

[John Dibble]

I've got to nitpick at a couple of things in your opening.

I don't believe that anyone who is a athiest is 100% certain that there is no external force, deity, god, life force, Gaia whatever you want to call it. It is just that the weight of the evidence is against it and continues to be stacked against it.

The evidence might be stacked up against some particular theistic claims, but there isn't really any evidence that there isn't some possible thing we might consider a god. It's simply that there's a lack of evidence even for the broad case for a deity.

For those who are theists the burden of proof must be on them. Particularly for Christians.

I don't agree with the latter point if I'm interpreting it correctly - Christians are not particularly special in having to have the burden of proof. The requirement is basically the same as any other serious theistic claim. The actual things needed for proof might differ, but the requirement does not. The only thing about Christians is that most of us here encounter far more of them than people from other faiths, so we're more likely to focus on it than other religions, but that doesn't mean we disagree with it any more or less than those other faiths.

----

Because I believe that having faith in your life leads to overall happiness. I am saddened that some people are so easy to simply quit their faith. It's easy to fall into the trap of secularism and just deny everything you can't see with your eyes. I know that's not necessarily true in your case but for many it is.

1. Having faith might make some people happy, but if what you have faith in isn't the truth then that can have consequences of it's own.

2. Most people who actually have faith who end up giving it up don't do so easily. I don't think you're intentionally doing so, but you're belittling the struggle these people often go through. By coming to the conclusion that their faith is wrong, many have to come to terms with the fact that they now perceive that much of what they did in life was dedicated to something that they now believe to be false. They also have to deal with their family members and friends who are still in the religion. Many feel they need to keep it hidden so they lie to keep their families happy, but it tears them up inside. They fear that if they tell their family the truth that there will be big fallout with those family members, including the possibility of being disowned. (which can and does happen) Because of this kind of thing these people often really, really try to believe, but they just can't bring themselves to because their minds tell them it isn't true.

3. Secularism is not a trap. I resent the very notion. It's very possible to live a happy and fulfilling life when you're secular - many people do, in fact.

---

Imagine I am a Muslim. I hold that everything in the Qu'ran is infalliable and true. My evidence for this is... the Qu'ran which tells me everything in the Qu'ran is true. This, as I'm sure you know Jmfsct, is a logical fallacy known as "the argument from authority".

Actually that particular logical fallacy is known as circular logic.

[Sam Spade]

When you deny one God, you inevitably find another.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

When you deny one God, you inevitably find another.

good point, but it is really only a paraphrased form of "they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped the creature rather than the Creator."

[John Dibble]

When you deny one God, you inevitably find another.

Well then, may I suggest myself as a candidate. In my heaven we have bikini models serving delicious waffles 24/7. All I ask is that you tithe a mere 2% of your income to me, tax free of course.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

When you deny one God, you inevitably find another.

Oh pray tell me O wise Sam Spade, what bis mein Gott?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Yes, you are right. I miswrote that - I meant to say that arguing from a book (as the book must be true a priori) is "the argument from authority".

[Sam Spade]

When you deny one God, you inevitably find another.

Oh pray tell me O wise Sam Spade, what bis mein Gott?

As you should have learned from Einzige, mixing up languages to make a point does not make it stronger.

My comment above is, to me at least, the key lesson of the 20th century.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

When you deny one God, you inevitably find another.

Oh pray tell me O wise Sam Spade, what bis mein Gott?

As you should have learned from Einzige, mixing up languages to make a point does not make it stronger.

My comment above is, to me at least, the key lesson of the 20th century.

And as you have should have learned from my earlier posts, not answering the question by evasion on some minor points (OMG LANGUAGE!!!111) is not an answer. What is my God Sam Spade (in English, happy?)?

Don't buy that argument tbh.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Waiting for Sam Spade.... Waiting for Sam Spade...

[The Mikado]

Not to preempt Sam, but his answer will likely be "your ego."

[War on Want]

I approve of this thread. Good to see more rational people ditch Christianity.

[afleitch]

Update

All is well! As liberally minded as I was, the moment you come to realise 'hey guys this is it' can actually be quite traumatic. You have to go through the process of 'burying the dead' somewhat. It now also means all my relationships are on the same level while still being different - my love for my family or for Chris for example. There is no longer some presence that has to bew thought of in hallowed terms and who gets away with murder (literally). I'm apologising for my wrong doing to the person I wronged. I'm talking about my fears with people who can respond, I'm wishing people well from my heart and giving them my best wishes and grace.