Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 03, 2014, 02:17:00 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Don't forget to get your 2013 Gubernatorial Endorsements and Predictions in!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  Political Debate (Moderator: Beet)
| | |-+  Are political principles inherently good?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Are political principles inherently good?  (Read 1145 times)
Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« on: June 18, 2010, 10:38:50 am »
Ignore

metaphysical principles of the 19th century have much in common with isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today in how they are used. This is because various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality. For example someone may oppose, or agree with an issue simply because it is labeled managed trade,non-interventionist, free trade, or any category that an individual may voluntary attach meaning to. I am no expert,but I am pretty sure that G.E moore proved that what is considered good is always an open question, and thus such things as non-interventionism and the common good are not inherently good or evil.

In any event in a political discussion political principles can become dogmatic in this example.
Person A) What do you think of the marshall plan,think it will work?
Person B) I oppose it because it goes against non-intervention, and thus the potential net benefit of this plan doesn't matter if it goes against my principle which has no inherent value what so ever....except for the one that i gave it.

on a side note person B formed the argument in a manner that many fundamentalist do. For example fundamentalists often attempt to restrict their opponent to their interpretation of the bible, and this is very similar to how person B tried to restrict person A to B's own principles.( there is a simple trick used in debate to thwart this strategy,but whatever).
Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4701
United States


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 02:12:06 pm »
Ignore

It depends on how grounded you are in your principles. I wouldn't compare your example to the Bible only because with my knowledge of the Bible, it's very open to interpretation. Overall I would say standing on principles is good because it shows conviction and that you are not willing to go with the flow. However it can also show closed mindedness. I can relate to your interventionist principles because I am close to always being against the government getting in the way of the free market. If someone conceded on that principle then where do they draw the line? I tend to stick to principles because going against them can set precedent, but it normally comes down to the situation at hand.
Logged

I'm Derek and I approve this message.
Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2010, 03:36:50 pm »
Ignore

It depends on how grounded you are in your principles. I wouldn't compare your example to the Bible only because with my knowledge of the Bible, it's very open to interpretation. Overall I would say standing on principles is good because it shows conviction and that you are not willing to go with the flow. However it can also show closed mindedness. I can relate to your interventionist principles because I am close to always being against the government getting in the way of the free market. If someone conceded on that principle then where do they draw the line? I tend to stick to principles because going against them can set precedent, but it normally comes down to the situation at hand.

You draw the line based on the context of the situation and so forth.
Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2010, 03:54:59 pm »
Ignore

why would have to draw a line? Why should we limit ourselves if we don't even know what the context is?
Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
Robb the Survivor
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 30640
France


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2010, 04:01:36 pm »
Ignore

Some political principles are, Human Rights above all.
Logged



Robb of the House Stark, First of his Name, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North



Quote from: IRC
22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

Peppino, from the movie Baaria
Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2010, 04:12:10 pm »
Ignore

Some political principles are, Human Rights above all.

What puts human rights above other political principles such as non-interventionism? From my view point such things as NI, and I are simply means that wish to bring about an indirect end. Why should human rights be respected?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 04:21:16 pm by Market interventionist of the highest order(wal-mart) »Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4701
United States


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2010, 05:45:11 pm »
Ignore

It's not really that complicated just do what's right for the situation at hand.
Logged

I'm Derek and I approve this message.
Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2010, 05:50:33 pm »
Ignore

It's not really that complicated just do what's right for the situation at hand.

one would think so, but too often someone will say that the oppose something merely because of principle.
Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4701
United States


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2010, 05:54:57 pm »
Ignore

It's not really that complicated just do what's right for the situation at hand.

one would think so, but too often someone will say that the oppose something merely because of principle.

There's nothing wrong with that either. Principles are good to stand by. They obviously have reason for their principles.
Logged

I'm Derek and I approve this message.
Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2010, 05:56:30 pm »
Ignore

It's not really that complicated just do what's right for the situation at hand.

one would think so, but too often someone will say that the oppose something merely because of principle.

There's nothing wrong with that either. Principles are good to stand by. They obviously have reason for their principles.

obviously they have a reason for their principles, but why have any at all if they have no inheret quality unless we attach meaning to them?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 05:59:32 pm by Market interventionist of the highest order(wal-mart) »Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4701
United States


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2010, 06:26:35 pm »
Ignore

It's not really that complicated just do what's right for the situation at hand.

one would think so, but too often someone will say that the oppose something merely because of principle.

There's nothing wrong with that either. Principles are good to stand by. They obviously have reason for their principles.

obviously they have a reason for their principles, but why have any at all if they have no inheret quality unless we attach meaning to them?

For most people their principles are believed for good and genuine reasons.
Logged

I'm Derek and I approve this message.
Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2010, 06:28:50 pm »
Ignore

It's not really that complicated just do what's right for the situation at hand.

one would think so, but too often someone will say that the oppose something merely because of principle.

There's nothing wrong with that either. Principles are good to stand by. They obviously have reason for their principles.

obviously they have a reason for their principles, but why have any at all if they have no inheret quality unless we attach meaning to them?

For most people their principles are believed for good and genuine reasons.

Their is nothing good or bad about having principles, but the principles themselves are neither good of bad. In the end it is an ultimate appeal to self. Principles are an extension of the self.
Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
IDS Attorney General PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22466
United States


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2010, 08:44:31 pm »
Ignore

     No, because nothing is inherently good. Things are only good within a certain paradigm. It just so happens that we all accept certain ideas (that human rights is a good idea, for example) because it is clearly to our advantage to do so.
Logged

Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2010, 11:16:09 pm »
Ignore

     No, because nothing is inherently good. Things are only good within a certain paradigm. It just so happens that we all accept certain ideas (that human rights is a good idea, for example) because it is clearly to our advantage to do so.

How are things within a certain paradigm. In any event I will conclude this lesson my stating "mankind routinely attach's qaulitys to abstract princples, and sometimes even objects, and thus i must ask what is the meaning of a flower?" Finally for further reading I suggest someone read up on the naturalistic fallacy, moral skeptcism, and G.E moore.
Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
IDS Attorney General PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22466
United States


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2010, 11:45:09 pm »
Ignore

     No, because nothing is inherently good. Things are only good within a certain paradigm. It just so happens that we all accept certain ideas (that human rights is a good idea, for example) because it is clearly to our advantage to do so.

How are things within a certain paradigm. In any event I will conclude this lesson my stating "mankind routinely attach's qaulitys to abstract princples, and sometimes even objects, and thus i must ask what is the meaning of a flower?" Finally for further reading I suggest someone read up on the naturalistic fallacy, moral skeptcism, and G.E moore.

     Paradigms are essentially the sets of principles held in high regard by certain ideological groups. You have the libertarian paradigm, the nationalist paradigm, &c. However, there are certain principles that are held as good by most (if not all) groups, due to their universal appeal. For example, everybody holds that murder is bad, principally because people would like to not be murdered.
Logged

Robb the Survivor
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 30640
France


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2010, 05:39:23 am »
Ignore

Some political principles are, Human Rights above all.

What puts human rights above other political principles such as non-interventionism? From my view point such things as NI, and I are simply means that wish to bring about an indirect end. Why should human rights be respected?

You are seriously asking that ?
Logged



Robb of the House Stark, First of his Name, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North



Quote from: IRC
22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

Peppino, from the movie Baaria
Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2010, 08:10:52 am »
Ignore

Some political principles are, Human Rights above all.

What puts human rights above other political principles such as non-interventionism? From my view point such things as NI, and I are simply means that wish to bring about an indirect end. Why should human rights be respected?

You are seriously asking that ?

yes? What is wrong with asking a simple question? I'd rather hear someone's elses reasons than my own.
Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
Robb the Survivor
Antonio V
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 30640
France


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2010, 11:11:55 am »
Ignore

Some political principles are, Human Rights above all.

What puts human rights above other political principles such as non-interventionism? From my view point such things as NI, and I are simply means that wish to bring about an indirect end. Why should human rights be respected?

You are seriously asking that ?

yes? What is wrong with asking a simple question? I'd rather hear someone's elses reasons than my own.

Well, if you are interested in a so evident question...
The best, and actually the only way to set universal principles to ensure a fair society is using Rawls' method : you have to immagine what would people agree about, if they didn't know anything about their position in such societies, nor are infuentiated by cultural principles. Such people would certainly reach a consesus leading to concilitae individual freedom with the guarantee that the stronger won't oppress the weaker. Human rights provide this. When I say human rights, I mean their broad conception : the original HRs (freedom of expression, equality before the law, security, property, protection against arbitrary decisions, democracy...) but also the new social rights that have been added since 1948 (right to work, to health, social justice...). these principles are fair because they are good independently to particular cases : because someone who doesn't know if he is privileged or not would accept them.
Logged



Robb of the House Stark, First of his Name, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North



Quote from: IRC
22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

Peppino, from the movie Baaria
Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.
HoffmanJohn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1953
United States


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2010, 12:46:01 pm »
Ignore

Some political principles are, Human Rights above all.

What puts human rights above other political principles such as non-interventionism? From my view point such things as NI, and I are simply means that wish to bring about an indirect end. Why should human rights be respected?

You are seriously asking that ?

yes? What is wrong with asking a simple question? I'd rather hear someone's elses reasons than my own.

Well, if you are interested in a so evident question...
The best, and actually the only way to set universal principles to ensure a fair society is using Rawls' method : you have to immagine what would people agree about, if they didn't know anything about their position in such societies, nor are infuentiated by cultural principles. Such people would certainly reach a consesus leading to concilitae individual freedom with the guarantee that the stronger won't oppress the weaker. Human rights provide this. When I say human rights, I mean their broad conception : the original HRs (freedom of expression, equality before the law, security, property, protection against arbitrary decisions, democracy...) but also the new social rights that have been added since 1948 (right to work, to health, social justice...). these principles are fair because they are good independently to particular cases : because someone who doesn't know if he is privileged or not would accept them.

Thanks I just learned something.
Logged

metaphysical principles relied on deductive logic, just like isolationism,non-intervention, and the common good do today. More importantly however is that various individuals make the mistake of using them for a golden axiom, despite the fact they have no inherent quality.-John Hoffman

people who claim to be critical thinkers without imposing a simple form of inquiry tend to be pseudoskeptics.-John hoffman

to kill an argument...focus on its structure, and assumptions.- john Hoffman.
Bo
Rochambeau
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 14388
Israel


Political Matrix
E: -5.23, S: -2.52

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2010, 06:11:32 pm »
Ignore

Depends.
Logged

nclib
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8778


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2010, 08:49:06 pm »
Ignore


In any event in a political discussion political principles can become dogmatic in this example.
Person A) What do you think of the marshall plan,think it will work?
Person B) I oppose it because it goes against non-intervention, and thus the potential net benefit of this plan doesn't matter if it goes against my principle which has no inherent value what so ever....except for the one that i gave it.

on a side note person B formed the argument in a manner that many fundamentalist do. For example fundamentalists often attempt to restrict their opponent to their interpretation of the bible, and this is very similar to how person B tried to restrict person A to B's own principles.( there is a simple trick used in debate to thwart this strategy,but whatever).

In the examples you give, those principles may not be desirable, but in plenty of cases principles are noble, regardless of whether we all agree with them or not. In my case, most of the principles I take the furthest are those having to do with protecting human rights.

For example:

Person A: I oppose gay marriage because I find it repulsive to walk down the street and see two guys hugging.
Me: Regardless of whether you (or most of society) feels that way, the two guys behavior is not objectively harmful to anyone, and they have the right to that behavior and to equality, and our government should prioritize human rights over anyone's perspective of what they find repulsive or not.
Logged



[George W. Bush] has shattered the myth of white supremacy once and for all. -- Congressman Charles Rangel (D-NY)

"George Bush supports abstinence. Lucky Laura."
- sign seen at the March for Women's Lives, 4/25/04

Derek
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4701
United States


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2010, 09:56:52 pm »
Ignore

yes it really does depend.
Logged

I'm Derek and I approve this message.
IDS Attorney General PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22466
United States


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 01:57:11 pm »
Ignore

     But to say it depends misses the point, which is to question whether it ever makes sense for a political principle to be held as all-overriding. I would suggest looking at it as "can political principles be inherently good?"
Logged

Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines