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Author Topic: Oh Dear :( - This could get REALLY ugly....  (Read 4680 times)
The Vorlon
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« on: November 01, 2004, 08:32:54 pm »
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The 9thEDIT 6th Curcuit has just ruled to allow GOP "challengers" at poll stations.

I agree conceptually that having observers and challengers at poll stations is a required and nessesary thing for the GOP to do given history, but I really hope the folks the GOP has sent out are very diplomatic, and very well trained.

If not - this could get really ugly on a fairly large scale.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2004, 08:55:07 pm by The Vorlon »Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2004, 08:34:16 pm »
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Let us hope Bush wins WI or NH or MN...so that nothing depends on OH in the end.
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2004, 08:38:43 pm »
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Let us hope Bush wins WI or NH or MN...so that nothing depends on OH in the end.

EVERYTHING depends on Ohio and Florida.  Bush will not win Wisconsin or Minnesota.
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J. J.
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2004, 08:45:55 pm »
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Let us hope Bush wins WI or NH or MN...so that nothing depends on OH in the end.

EVERYTHING depends on Ohio and Florida.  Bush will not win Wisconsin or Minnesota.

Dream on, Bush wins the firewall, even though he doesn't need it.
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2004, 08:51:34 pm »
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OHIO EXIT POLLS 5PM

Kerry 50
Bush 47

BLACK VOTERS THROWN OUT OF POLLING STATIONS FOR BEING 'SUSPISIOUS' (sp?)

Final results:

Bush 49
Kerry 48
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2004, 08:53:50 pm »
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I thought it was the 6th CIrcuit.

This is a tough case.  In any county with voter registration over 100% I can hope we all agree that we NEED observers there. 

On the other hand it would be real easy to get out of hand and start trying to disqualify legitimate voters.

The Ohio GOP obviously planned their challenges well.  They sent mailings to many addresses with new registrants.  They now have a list of addresses which came back with a return to sender or whatever.

If they limit it to the list and keep thigns civil and polite, it will be a good thing to prevent voter fraud.

If they go overboard it could quickly become voter intimidation.

I expect it will end up doing both.
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2004, 09:02:43 pm »
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Vorlon,

When are the first exit polls released, and will you post your final prediction before the release of the first exit polls?
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2004, 09:33:00 pm »
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I agree it's a good idea and I certainly agree that they will need to be very conscious about how they carry themselves and how they approach potential problems.
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2004, 09:41:28 pm »
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The 9thEDIT 6th Curcuit has just ruled to allow GOP "challengers" at poll stations.

I agree conceptually that having observers and challengers at poll stations is a required and nessesary thing for the GOP to do given history, but I really hope the folks the GOP has sent out are very diplomatic, and very well trained.

If not - this could get really ugly on a fairly large scale.
Vorlon, do you have a link for this?  They were discussing it (on MSNBC, I think) and they said it was the Ohio Supreme Court which ruled this way.  And it muddied the waters rather than clarifying anything, because the Federal court takes priority, but if and only if the Federal court ruling is based on protection against discrimination.  Otherwise, the State sets the rules for elections.  It was unclear to the panel which ruling stands and what would be allowed.  The news had just broken, so maybe they got it wrong (that it was the Ohio Supreme Court).  That's why I ask for a link if you've got one.  If not, I'll go look for one myself.  Smiley

...edit: I've found a story on Fox an it looks like you're right (but even that story is somewhat unclear).  Most other news sites, oddly, don't even have the story up yet.  But it appears that you've got it right and the MSNBC panel misunderstood it.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2004, 09:45:42 pm by millwx »Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2004, 10:55:22 pm »
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I thought it was the 6th CIrcuit.

This is a tough case.  In any county with voter registration over 100% I can hope we all agree that we NEED observers there. 

On the other hand it would be real easy to get out of hand and start trying to disqualify legitimate voters.

The Ohio GOP obviously planned their challenges well.  They sent mailings to many addresses with new registrants.  They now have a list of addresses which came back with a return to sender or whatever.

If they limit it to the list and keep thigns civil and polite, it will be a good thing to prevent voter fraud.

If they go overboard it could quickly become voter intimidation.

I expect it will end up doing both.

As we all know, George Soros has paid a lot of money for phony invalid registrations.

Soros has been accused of many things, but stupidty is not one of them.

So, why pay for invalid registrations?

Well, it forms the basis for invalid votes.

However the Republicans have been very well organized and made it clear they would not put up with vote fraud.

I understand that Soros has been advised by his lawyers to pull the plug on this effort, and is reputedly following his lawyers advice.
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2004, 01:03:04 am »
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  The  GOP appointing themselves policemen of Democratic voters?

   I don't agree  bluntly.
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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2004, 01:13:45 am »
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       The Republican Party needs to do more than redline its own districts to get away with these accusations in the long term.

      But demographics take care of that, don't they?

      Look at Orange County, CA.

      What are these  Republican accusations really about?  Where are the Republicans going on election night?

       Back to those neighborhoods like the ones in Orange County that just aren't run by their country clubs anymore.  Republicans no longer vote in those neighborhoods because they  ran away afraid of the ethnics coming in.   And now they're going back in for a visit to try and block the polls from  those people they ran away from.

      Republicans turn tail.  It's really hard to believe they're going to manage much of these poll challenges they say they'll do. 

     

   
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 01:17:09 am by alcaeus »Logged
Citizen James
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« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2004, 01:32:23 am »
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Now, where were all those people complaining about Moore placing camera's near polls?

This could just about destroy the GOP - moderates have already been fleeing the party in recent years, more nastyness like this, and all you'll have left is the short tempered and dogmatic.
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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2004, 05:18:03 am »
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I really hope it doesn't end up happening that lines at polling stations where there are a large number of challenges end up being significantly longer than those where there are fewer.
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2004, 07:30:08 am »
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I really hope it doesn't end up happening that lines at polling stations where there are a large number of challenges end up being significantly longer than those where there are fewer.
I would assume that that is the whole point of the exercise.

Re: Soros. Yes, I would accuse of him of stupidity. Long before most other things.
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« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2004, 09:52:26 am »
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I thought it was the 6th CIrcuit.

This is a tough case.  In any county with voter registration over 100% I can hope we all agree that we NEED observers there. 

On the other hand it would be real easy to get out of hand and start trying to disqualify legitimate voters.

The Ohio GOP obviously planned their challenges well.  They sent mailings to many addresses with new registrants.  They now have a list of addresses which came back with a return to sender or whatever.

If they limit it to the list and keep thigns civil and polite, it will be a good thing to prevent voter fraud.

If they go overboard it could quickly become voter intimidation.

I expect it will end up doing both.

I think one idea is that they will use it to tie up the polling place and make people wait longer, thus turn some away. Also, the idea that a returned mail is grounds for a challege is baseless. The filing on behalf of the voters, by the dems or liberal groups, was well written on this. Sorry I don't have the link to the filing here and I don't know which of the cases it was from. I think the first once.

Also, is this federal or state courts? Is allowing challegers the same as allowing them to decide or allowing them to sit and take notes?

Finally, aren't two party reps already at each precint by state law and officials? Does this mean the parties want to place somebody "better" than the people the local officials or party might have chosen? I.e., they don't trust locals and want some overbearing outside lawyers to challenge or defend?
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2004, 09:59:14 am »
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"As we all know, George Soros has paid a lot of money for phony invalid registrations."

> Doen't mean phony votes will occur. I'm interested in any evidence you find of this later. I'm sure there are studies of non-voters voting, but if you have proof this on any large scale let me know.

"Soros has been accused of many things, but stupidty is not one of them.

So, why pay for invalid registrations?

Well, it forms the basis for invalid votes."

>> No. The legal enforcement people who have looked into this that have commented on it so far, as have journalists, are clear: it was due to bad management where people handed in fake applications to claim they gathered them to get paid, or paid more.  I don't think the people doing the fakes were hoping that Micky Mouse would vote, etc.

"However the Republicans have been very well organized and made it clear they would not put up with vote fraud."

>> Just their own kind. Man, you're lopsided.

"I understand that Soros has been advised by his lawyers to pull the plug on this effort, and is reputedly following his lawyers advice."

>>Where is the proof of this?? I asked before and you didn't reply. Is this cited or just rumor you picked up?
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2004, 10:19:40 am »
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I thought it was the 6th CIrcuit.

This is a tough case.  In any county with voter registration over 100% I can hope we all agree that we NEED observers there. 

On the other hand it would be real easy to get out of hand and start trying to disqualify legitimate voters.

The Ohio GOP obviously planned their challenges well.  They sent mailings to many addresses with new registrants.  They now have a list of addresses which came back with a return to sender or whatever.

If they limit it to the list and keep thigns civil and polite, it will be a good thing to prevent voter fraud.

If they go overboard it could quickly become voter intimidation.

I expect it will end up doing both.

I think one idea is that they will use it to tie up the polling place and make people wait longer, thus turn some away. Also, the idea that a returned mail is grounds for a challege is baseless. The filing on behalf of the voters, by the dems or liberal groups, was well written on this. Sorry I don't have the link to the filing here and I don't know which of the cases it was from. I think the first once.

Also, is this federal or state courts? Is allowing challegers the same as allowing them to decide or allowing them to sit and take notes?

Finally, aren't two party reps already at each precint by state law and officials? Does this mean the parties want to place somebody "better" than the people the local officials or party might have chosen? I.e., they don't trust locals and want some overbearing outside lawyers to challenge or defend?

I'm sorry, but putting down a false or fake address is a very good reason to challenge a vote.  In fact, it is a crime.  If someone has bad handwriting and it was missent to Perry instead of Kerry Drive, then they will be allowed to vote after clearing it up.  However Dick Tracy who loves at 14 Lollipop Lane shouldn't be voting if his card came back.  Heck, his ID should definitely be checked if his mail went through.

The Ohio law has, for over a century I believe, allowed each party to have one poll watcher per polling station.  This year Democrats wanted none and Republicans wanted more than one.  Both were wrong and the ruling was right.  One per station will hopefully be enough.

Sadly, I think you are also right that there will be attempts to slow thigns down so much people go home.  I expect it to happen in both heavily D neighborhoods and heavily R areas as well.
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2004, 01:04:11 pm »
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Surely, whether one is eligible to vote or not is a matter for the polling officials to decide, isn't it?

Dave
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2004, 01:05:39 pm »
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Surely, whether one is eligible to vote or not is a matter for the polling officials to decide, isn't it?

Dave

They do decide.  The watchers only challenge people.  They do not actually stop anyone from voting on their own.
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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2004, 04:22:55 pm »
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Bush will not win Wisconsin or Minnesota.

Hey he got this one right
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