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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2014, 12:13:52 am »
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Maybe that's the (pinko) European in me speaking, but I do feel that it is certainly preferable to have a central authority controlling our currency, and in that way our monetary policy. Such an important point as money is for me better left to the government...
This bill wouldn't abolish the Federal Reserve or prevent it from issuing currency.

Would this enable private individuals to print their own currency... assuming that others would be prepared to accept it?
That's already legal.

That is true.

I'm pretty sure bartering is not illegal. I'm just not sure what problem is being solved by this Bill, when a lot of it is accepted and not illegal.
Let's say a worker wishes to be paid in Bitcoin. The employer doesn't really care so he agrees to a contract specifying such. When payday comes along, the employer reneges on the contract and pays the worker in ASD (I assume this is the abbreviation for Atlasian dollars). Under the current system, the worker would have to agree to that since, under legal tender laws, ASD must be accepted for the payment for all financial obligations (in this case, the obligation of the employer to the employee). The contract requiring payment in BTC would be unenforceable in court due to legal tender laws. The same applies for the other examples I gave previously.
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2014, 04:01:55 am »
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So will this bill also allow companies to pay their employees in monopoly money?
Yes, if that was specified in the employment contract. What worker would agree to that though?

What worker has the ability to tell his employer what she wants to be paid, and in this instance, what she wants to be paid in? Do you have any understanding of the 19th Century? Because employers did, and if this bill passes, will begin to pay the lowest of the low paid in company scrip as a means of asserting total control over every aspect of their lives. I'd rather not give them the opportunity.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2014, 12:30:44 pm »
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Maybe that's the (pinko) European in me speaking, but I do feel that it is certainly preferable to have a central authority controlling our currency, and in that way our monetary policy. Such an important point as money is for me better left to the government...
This bill wouldn't abolish the Federal Reserve or prevent it from issuing currency.

Oh I do know that, but wouldn't it (correct me if I'm wrong) take away the "monopoly" for the Fed to control this issuing of currency. And I believe that the state should have the monopoly on that, otherwise people could just go out and print as much money as they want - the economy just wouldn't survive that. As said, probably this is my European point of view, but there needs to be someone who controls all this, at least in my opinion.
If someone just started their won currency that they massively inflated, I doubt anybody would use it.
Of course not willingly, but what happens if it were a person of sizeable influence? And what if they stated to inflate Dollars?
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2014, 09:50:33 pm »
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So will this bill also allow companies to pay their employees in monopoly money?
Yes, if that was specified in the employment contract. What worker would agree to that though?

What worker has the ability to tell his employer what she wants to be paid, and in this instance, what she wants to be paid in? Do you have any understanding of the 19th Century? Because employers did, and if this bill passes, will begin to pay the lowest of the low paid in company scrip as a means of asserting total control over every aspect of their lives. I'd rather not give them the opportunity.
No worker would work for monopoly money because they would gain nothing from doing so. That's like saying we should ban volunteer work because employers would start paying employees nothing. That would never happen because no worker who wants money would work for nothing.

Company scrip is a different issue. But, that's already legal (I think? If it's illegal I don't see how this bill would change that). Legal tender laws don't require that only ASD be used to pay employees, they just require that workers accept ASD if their employer wants to pay them with that. Under the current system, an employer and an employee could negotiate a contract specifying payment in non-ASD, but only the employer would have the ability to renege on the agreement. The employee wouldn't be able to demand payment in ASD, since the legal tender statute states that ASD must be accepted "for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues", not that they must be used as payment for such. At least that's my understanding.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 09:53:39 pm by Deus Naturae »Logged

Eternal Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2014, 02:39:09 am »
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I generally believe in a free market, but the instability created by a chaotic currency market has had a generally negative effect on the free flow of commerce. Rather then applying a broad standard down to the narrowest of economic sub-policies, it is better in my view to focus on the big picture and then ascertain what approach is best on a sub-policy and if that requires gov't regulation (and thereby said regulation facilitates the overall free market) I think such is the better route to take.


Now that said, nothing of course absolves any central bank of incompetence and poor policy and there should be changes made to the way they operate of course.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2014, 12:32:07 am »
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I generally believe in a free market, but the instability created by a chaotic currency market has had a generally negative effect on the free flow of commerce.
Example(s)? I see no reason to believe this would lead to chaos.

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Rather then applying a broad standard down to the narrowest of economic sub-policies, it is better in my view to focus on the big picture and then ascertain what approach is best on a sub-policy and if that requires gov't regulation (and thereby said regulation facilitates the overall free market) I think such is the better route to take.
Alright. I have no idea how that applies to this bill though.


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« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2014, 04:54:22 am »
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I don't believe there is enough will in the Senate to further this, considering nothing has happened for three days. The Sponsor has presented his case, I believe I have asked my questions, and here has been sufficient time for others. I appreciate Senator Deus' prompt responses.

I am going to motion for a final vote on this.
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« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2014, 05:12:55 am »
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Second motion for final vote
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Cranberry
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« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2014, 07:00:37 am »
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I third the motion
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« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2014, 01:41:26 pm »
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Senators a final vote is now open on this bill, please vote aye nay or abstain
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2014, 06:04:53 am »
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Nay
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2014, 06:15:30 am »
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NAY
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2014, 10:24:29 am »
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Nay
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2014, 11:58:02 am »
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NAY
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Quote
Flo   it seems like everytime i talk to you i have some sort of illness
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Cranberry
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2014, 12:47:20 pm »
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Nay
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« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2014, 01:00:37 pm »
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Nay
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bore
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« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2014, 02:20:10 pm »
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This has enough votes to fail, senators have 24 hours to change their votes
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Eternal Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2014, 01:17:08 am »
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Nay I Guess
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« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2014, 07:38:58 pm »
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Yay
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bore
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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2014, 07:46:25 pm »
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By a vote of 7-1 this bill has failed the senate

Aye: JCL

Nay: Bore, Yankee, Polnut, Bacon King, TNF, Windjammer, Cranberry

Not voting: Deus
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