Heaven, Hell, Reincarnation, and other "end points"

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

There is plenty of evidence to support me. It's not like I'm the only one who thinks what I'm saying.

No, you don't.

[afleitch]

Through observing thought (and actions as a result of thought) it is apparent that it is intrinsicly linked with matter; we need a brain to think, we need electrical pulses to drive 'the thinking'. That's what we know, other methods may not be impossible but they have not been demonstrated. Do thoughts exist outside the material? More than likely not; they can 'exist' if they are shared with others, but the passing on and receipt of an idea from one human to another requires the brain.

I cannot see how any essence can exist beyond the death or destruction of the material body or indeed exist before the creation of the material body

Curiously, for those who think that before the 'Big Bang' there was a god to kick start it off, if there was no matter before the creation of matter how could this god 'think' and therefore create?

[Derek]

Through observing thought (and actions as a result of thought) it is apparent that it is intrinsicly linked with matter; we need a brain to think, we need electrical pulses to drive 'the thinking'. That's what we know, other methods may not be impossible but they have not been demonstrated. Do thoughts exist outside the material? More than likely not; they can 'exist' if they are shared with others, but the passing on and receipt of an idea from one human to another requires the brain.

I cannot see how any essence can exist beyond the death or destruction of the material body or indeed exist before the creation of the material body

Curiously, for those who think that before the 'Big Bang' there was a god to kick start it off, if there was no matter before the creation of matter how could this god 'think' and therefore create?

You're viewing God as finite. God is not limited to what we know to be matter or anything necessary for creation.

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

You're viewing God as finite. God is not limited to what we know to be matter or anything necessary for creation.

Do you have evidence for this?

[fezzyfestoon]

Our bodies are all we have.  Once that's gone, we're gone.

The body is the prison house of the soul.

The soul is an invention to make us feel better, as is heaven.

Not necessarily, what about the mind's awareness of itself. That is what constitutes existence. Can that thought be destroyed?

Easily, with a good whack on the head a person can have no awareness of himself.  Thought and awareness is a system of chemical reactions in our brains.  A little jostle of that organ and we're worse off than most other animals.

[Derek]

You're viewing God as finite. God is not limited to what we know to be matter or anything necessary for creation.

Do you have evidence for this?

No because I'm finite. You keep insisting that everything can be understood from the finite point of view and it just can't. We'll never know all the answers and that is part of being human. If God could be limited then by definition that would not be God and we're back to finding God.

[fezzyfestoon]

You're viewing God as finite. God is not limited to what we know to be matter or anything necessary for creation.

Do you have evidence for this?

No because I'm finite. You keep insisting that everything can be understood from the finite point of view and it just can't. We'll never know all the answers and that is part of being human. If God could be limited then by definition that would not be God and we're back to finding God.

Then why do Christians (and people of most religions) claim to be right?  If we can't possibly understand what's going on, then how come you claim to?  And tell us we're wrong about it?

[Derek]

You're viewing God as finite. God is not limited to what we know to be matter or anything necessary for creation.

Do you have evidence for this?

No because I'm finite. You keep insisting that everything can be understood from the finite point of view and it just can't. We'll never know all the answers and that is part of being human. If God could be limited then by definition that would not be God and we're back to finding God.

Then why do Christians (and people of most religions) claim to be right?  If we can't possibly understand what's going on, then how come you claim to?  And tell us we're wrong about it?

That's their religions and religions are taken very seriously. Most people do not look into things like you, me, and the other people on this forum. Some will tell you that you're wrong because they believe that with their beliefs they will be saved. Many religious people do not know the entirety of what they believe in. I don't know that it's such a bad thing to be religious either though. It has clearly helped with individual success and made people live better lives. Religion has alot of positive things to offer. Does it really matter if they're right or wrong?

[fezzyfestoon]

That's their religions and religions are taken very seriously. Most people do not look into things like you, me, and the other people on this forum. Some will tell you that you're wrong because they believe that with their beliefs they will be saved. Many religious people do not know the entirety of what they believe in. I don't know that it's such a bad thing to be religious either though. It has clearly helped with individual success and made people live better lives. Religion has alot of positive things to offer. Does it really matter if they're right or wrong?

That's...exactly what I'm saying.  People approach religion as if they're undeniably correct, yourself included, then say that God is infinite and cannot be understood.

[Derek]

That's their religions and religions are taken very seriously. Most people do not look into things like you, me, and the other people on this forum. Some will tell you that you're wrong because they believe that with their beliefs they will be saved. Many religious people do not know the entirety of what they believe in. I don't know that it's such a bad thing to be religious either though. It has clearly helped with individual success and made people live better lives. Religion has alot of positive things to offer. Does it really matter if they're right or wrong?

That's...exactly what I'm saying.  People approach religion as if they're undeniably correct, yourself included, then say that God is infinite and cannot be understood.

How have I approached religion that way? I have my theories and views that I've developed through years of research. I don't hold my views because I was taught to never think otherwise. I hope you have read my views on here in regards to creation, Moses, Jesus, the disciples, and gnosticism.

[fezzyfestoon]

That's their religions and religions are taken very seriously. Most people do not look into things like you, me, and the other people on this forum. Some will tell you that you're wrong because they believe that with their beliefs they will be saved. Many religious people do not know the entirety of what they believe in. I don't know that it's such a bad thing to be religious either though. It has clearly helped with individual success and made people live better lives. Religion has alot of positive things to offer. Does it really matter if they're right or wrong?

That's...exactly what I'm saying.  People approach religion as if they're undeniably correct, yourself included, then say that God is infinite and cannot be understood.

How have I approached religion that way? I have my theories and views that I've developed through years of research. I don't hold my views because I was taught to never think otherwise. I hope you have read my views on here in regards to creation, Moses, Jesus, the disciples, and gnosticism.

Research in...the Bible.  Your own way of thinking.  I'm not talking about telling other Christians about how right or wrong they are about Christianity, I'm talking about religion in general.

[Derek]

That's their religions and religions are taken very seriously. Most people do not look into things like you, me, and the other people on this forum. Some will tell you that you're wrong because they believe that with their beliefs they will be saved. Many religious people do not know the entirety of what they believe in. I don't know that it's such a bad thing to be religious either though. It has clearly helped with individual success and made people live better lives. Religion has alot of positive things to offer. Does it really matter if they're right or wrong?

That's...exactly what I'm saying.  People approach religion as if they're undeniably correct, yourself included, then say that God is infinite and cannot be understood.

How have I approached religion that way? I have my theories and views that I've developed through years of research. I don't hold my views because I was taught to never think otherwise. I hope you have read my views on here in regards to creation, Moses, Jesus, the disciples, and gnosticism.

Research in...the Bible.  Your own way of thinking.  I'm not talking about telling other Christians about how right or wrong they are about Christianity, I'm talking about religion in general.

I've studied other religions too. Religion really is geographically based. Either way I don't think that God would have to have a religion. God would be above religion.

[fezzyfestoon]

I've studied other religions too. Religion really is geographically based. Either way I don't think that God would have to have a religion. God would be above religion.

Aaaaaaand you still don't get it...surprise!

[Derek]

I've studied other religions too. Religion really is geographically based. Either way I don't think that God would have to have a religion. God would be above religion.

Aaaaaaand you still don't get it...surprise!

What is there to get? Now you're off topic.

[fezzyfestoon]

I've studied other religions too. Religion really is geographically based. Either way I don't think that God would have to have a religion. God would be above religion.

Aaaaaaand you still don't get it...surprise!

What is there to get? Now you're off topic.

wow

[Derek]

I've studied other religions too. Religion really is geographically based. Either way I don't think that God would have to have a religion. God would be above religion.

Aaaaaaand you still don't get it...surprise!

What is there to get? Now you're off topic.

Stop it.
wow

[fezzyfestoon]

I've studied other religions too. Religion really is geographically based. Either way I don't think that God would have to have a religion. God would be above religion.

Aaaaaaand you still don't get it...surprise!

What is there to get? Now you're off topic.

wow

Stop it.

What?

[Derek]

I've studied other religions too. Religion really is geographically based. Either way I don't think that God would have to have a religion. God would be above religion.

Aaaaaaand you still don't get it...surprise!

What is there to get? Now you're off topic.

wow

Stop it.

What?

So do you think it matters if we're right or wrong?

[fezzyfestoon]

So do you think it matters if we're right or wrong?

See my VERY FIRST post on the matter.

[Derek]

You think we get eaten by worms? Well our bodies do.

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

You're viewing God as finite. God is not limited to what we know to be matter or anything necessary for creation.

Do you have evidence for this?

No because I'm finite. You keep insisting that everything can be understood from the finite point of view and it just can't. We'll never know all the answers and that is part of being human. If God could be limited then by definition that would not be God and we're back to finding God.

"By definition" seems to be all you have to say, but you have no basis for that definition - where exactly did this definition come from? Some religions have defined gods as not being infinite, so why is that somehow less valid than what you're saying? Who the hell made you the final arbiter of determining what is and what isn't a god?

So do you think it matters if we're right or wrong?

You don't. That's quite clear seeing as you don't seem to give a damn about evidence.

[Derek]

You're viewing God as finite. God is not limited to what we know to be matter or anything necessary for creation.

Do you have evidence for this?

No because I'm finite. You keep insisting that everything can be understood from the finite point of view and it just can't. We'll never know all the answers and that is part of being human. If God could be limited then by definition that would not be God and we're back to finding God.

"By definition" seems to be all you have to say, but you have no basis for that definition - where exactly did this definition come from? Some religions have defined gods as not being infinite, so why is that somehow less valid than what you're saying? Who the hell made you the final arbiter of determining what is and what isn't a god?

So do you think it matters if we're right or wrong?

You don't. That's quite clear seeing as you don't seem to give a damn about evidence.

If they have different gods who aren't infinite then that can't be a true God. I still feel like you're imagining God to be this masculine figure in the clouds.

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

If they have different gods who aren't infinite then that can't be a true God.

Says you. They would disagree. Neither of you can prove your view right. Why should I think your definition is any more correct than anyone else's?

I still feel like you're imagining God to be this masculine figure in the clouds.

You feel incorrectly. It could be some nebulous energy being or an invisible pink unicorn for all I care. My problem is that you keep making this definition based on what you'd like God to be like - for all you know there was a god but it burned itself out creating the universe. You can yell "infinite" until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't make it true. Where's the evidence that a god must be infinite?

[fezzyfestoon]

You think we get eaten by worms? Well our bodies do.

What does that have to do with the question?

[Derek]

If they have different gods who aren't infinite then that can't be a true God.

Says you. They would disagree. Neither of you can prove your view right. Why should I think your definition is any more correct than anyone else's?

I still feel like you're imagining God to be this masculine figure in the clouds.

You feel incorrectly. It could be some nebulous energy being or an invisible pink unicorn for all I care. My problem is that you keep making this definition based on what you'd like God to be like - for all you know there was a god but it burned itself out creating the universe. You can yell "infinite" until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't make it true. Where's the evidence that a god must be infinite?

How about this? Are you reading? You envision God as an invisible pink unicorn and I'll envision God as the first mover.