Is Greater Toronto just as bad as SoCal in terms of sprawl?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I know I'm probably going to piss Earl off with this, but yes. Canada is really just as bad as the US when it comes to suburban sprawl I'll admit.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I know I'm probably going to piss Earl off with this, but yes. Canada is really just as bad as the US when it comes to suburban sprawl I'll admit.

Canada has no room for gloating when it comes to sprawl.  They might be marginally better than the U.S... but really in the end in becomes like midgets gloating to dwarves how they can reach the 2nd shelf in the cereal aisle (thank you Family Guy).

Metro LA has over 2600 people/sq. mile while Metro Toronto is 2200/sq. mile.  LA is the 2nd densest metro in the U.S. behind New York City when looking at Metropolitan Statistical Areas.

Both Toronto and Montreal have similar densities in Canada.

It should also be noted that one of Toronto's claims to fame is the Ontario 401 freeway, the busiest in North America (and certainly one of the busiest in the world):



Some sections of Ontario Highway 401 handle over 500,000 cars per day.  The busiest freeways in LA handle just over 300,000.

[Hatman 🍁]

Snowguy beat me to it about the 401. It's true we have sprawl issues, and Toronto is a horrible example of it. It's not as bad as SoCal though, for sure. Doesn't make it right though. I can't imagine living in Burlington, Barrie or Bowmanville and having to commute into the city for work every day.

I'm so happy to live in Ottawa, where sprawl exists, but nowhere near the same degree, and the sprawl we do have seems foreign to me.

[2952-0-0]

Canada has no room for gloating when it comes to sprawl.  They might be marginally better than the U.S... but really in the end in becomes like midgets gloating to dwarves how they can reach the 2nd shelf in the cereal aisle (thank you Family Guy).-\

I agree, and this pisses me off a lot on many issues. There's no right to gloat that Canada is better than the US when the bar is so low anyway.,

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To be fair, this had to happen. The 401 is the *only* significant east/west freeway through the entire region which has use to long distance drivers. The 407 is a toll road and is only used by those with money to burn. The Gardiner/DVP should be avoided if you're not going to/from downtown Toronto. The GTA sits on a lake and is therefore only half a city. Anti-expressway movements in the 1970s (led by Jane Jacobs) have prevented any further freeway building in the inner core. A lack of vision in the government has prevented any decent long-distance railway system from emerging. It's therefore only natural that the 401 is the busiest freeway on the continent.

[Хahar 🤔]

Why do you refer to roads as the X? You sound like Southern Californians.

[2952-0-0]

Why do you refer to roads as the X? You sound like Southern Californians.

There's no other choice. There's no I-system in Canada. Legally, provincial-maintained roads are called the "King's (Queen's?) Highways", but no one uses that. People refer to "highway X" in certain circumstances, but no one cares either way.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

That sounds like here for non-interstates, except people never say things like "The 169" or "The 62", just "169" or "62".

[Хahar 🤔]

That sounds like here for non-interstates, except people never say things like "The 169" or "The 62", just "169" or "62".

Here it's a shibboleth for determining which part of the state you're from.

[minionofmidas]

Wow. That's a lot of lanes.

[Hatman 🍁]

If it's a 400 series highway, we say "the" infront of it. If it's a not, then we say highway X.

[Hash]

Why do you refer to roads as the X? You sound like Southern Californians.

Quebec people also say "la X" though some people say "l'autoroute X". Even sometimes for provincial roads, people refer to them as "la X" (like la 131 which runs from Lavaltrie to the place where highway 31 ends) instead of "la route X"

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I know I'm probably going to piss Earl off with this, but yes. Canada is really just as bad as the US when it comes to suburban sprawl I'll admit.

The Parisian region surely is even worse because there it's both sprawling and very concentrated area. And the connection between all suburbs and the core is far to be optimal to say the least. In term of concentration, the figures given by Snowguy, 2,600 p/sq. miles for LA and 2,200 for Toronto are a bit pale compared to those of Paris and its suburbs, though it's not yet Tokyo but:

Paris, core: 20,775 people/km² (7894 p/sq. miles), 25,209 (9,579) without woods.

Suburbian départements, called 'Petite Couronne' ('Small Crown'):

Hauts-de-Seine: 8728 p/km² (3,316 p/sq.miles)
Seine-Saint-Denis: 6322 p/km² (2,402 p/sq.miles)
Val-de-Marne: 5299 p/km² (2,013 p/sq.miles)

Paris and the Petite Couronne only being the most concentrated part of the urban area, it goes beyond it.

Parisian urban area (not Ile-de-France, the urban area)  is 11,836,970 people (2007) and since there isn't the figures of the surface for the urban area, it is extended on something like a rectangle of 60 km (37 miles) x maybe 40 km (25 miles), and keeps extending.



I don't know what is worse, huge sprawling (American model), or more concentrated while still sprawling (Paris example). Maybe the best is not to have monster cities...

Wow. That's a lot of lanes.

Yeah, such highways always fascinated me, in France at best there are a bunch of portions with 4x4, but not a lot if so, the biggest and most common here is 3x3, and most common is 2x2.

Why do you refer to roads as the X? You sound like Southern Californians.

Quebec people also say "la X" though some people say "l'autoroute X". Even sometimes for provincial roads, people refer to them as "la X" (like la 131 which runs from Lavaltrie to the place where highway 31 ends) instead of "la route X"

Yes, and it's not only SoCal-ers or Canadians, in France too, people say 'the départementale/nationale X', or 'the X', or 'the D (départementale)/N (nationale)/A (autoroute) X'

[minionofmidas]

Yeah, it's 5 lanes a side near the Frankfurter Kreuz here.

[Hatman 🍁]

Are there any highways that wide in the U.S., or anywhere else really? (as the 401 in Toronto)

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Are there any highways that wide in the U.S., or anywhere else really? (as the 401 in Toronto)

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway

22, 26...for the French I am it is...

According to the same article the 401 is the busiest in the world though.

[Sbane]

Are there any highways that wide in the U.S., or anywhere else really? (as the 401 in Toronto)

The Katy freeway in Houston is almost as big I think. Also the El Toro Y where the 405 and 5 meet in Orange county. 401 beats both of them though, I am sure.

[Hash]

Why do you refer to roads as the X? You sound like Southern Californians.

Quebec people also say "la X" though some people say "l'autoroute X". Even sometimes for provincial roads, people refer to them as "la X" (like la 131 which runs from Lavaltrie to the place where highway 31 ends) instead of "la route X"

Yes, and it's not only SoCal-ers or Canadians, in France too, people say 'the départementale/nationale X', or 'the X', or 'the D (départementale)/N (nationale)/A (autoroute) X'

People in my family always refer to roads as 'la nationale X' and so forth, never as 'la X'. We say 'la nationale 137' and I don't think anybody in my family knows the number of the departmental or communal roads.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Why do you refer to roads as the X? You sound like Southern Californians.

Quebec people also say "la X" though some people say "l'autoroute X". Even sometimes for provincial roads, people refer to them as "la X" (like la 131 which runs from Lavaltrie to the place where highway 31 ends) instead of "la route X"

Yes, and it's not only SoCal-ers or Canadians, in France too, people say 'the départementale/nationale X', or 'the X', or 'the D (départementale)/N (nationale)/A (autoroute) X'

People in my family always refer to roads as 'la nationale X' and so forth, never as 'la X'. We say 'la nationale 137' and I don't think anybody in my family knows the number of the departmental or communal roads.

Euh, well, some people know the départementale roads! Since especially, you know, some live in countrysides.

And, I've been gentle when I spoke about 'nationales', because officially they don't exist anymore we only have départementales and autoroutes now, but yes, people would continue to say 'nationale' during a while. And well, yes, maybe only a very few would use only the number, it would always be preceded by départementale/nationale, some say the full name, some, maybe a slight majority only say D/N. For autoroutes on the other hand, everybody says 'A X'.

[Hash]

Euh, well, some people know the départementale roads! Since especially, you know, some live in countrysides.

Eh, now! My aunt lives in Bovel (look it up, it's damn rural). To get to her place, she usually refers to "la route de Baulon", "la route de Redon", "la route de Quimper" etc. Actually, a lot of people in Bretagne at least talk in terms of where roads lead to: la route de Saint-Malo, la route de Quimper, la route de Vannes.

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I can't speak for autoroutes because we don't have those in Bretagne We still have our national roads, N137 to Saint-Malo from Rennes. But yes, people do say "l'A X" outside of Breizh. And a majority likely say 'D X' or 'N X' too.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Euh, well, some people know the départementale roads! Since especially, you know, some live in countrysides.

Eh, now! My aunt lives in Bovel (look it up, it's damn rural). To get to her place, she usually refers to "la route de Baulon", "la route de Redon", "la route de Quimper" etc. Actually, a lot of people in Bretagne at least talk in terms of where roads lead to: la route de Saint-Malo, la route de Quimper, la route de Vannes.

That's right too, yes, people also use the name of the city where the road leads to speak about it, yes. Maybe they use more 'D X' for bigger roads. Depends on people.

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I can't speak for autoroutes because we don't have those in Bretagne We still have our national roads, N137 to Saint-Malo from Rennes.

Yeah, you're damn lucky with your regional road networks, never been, but I watched maps and I've been told, and all are 'free'.

[minionofmidas]

Euh, well, some people know the départementale roads! Since especially, you know, some live in countrysides.

Eh, now! My aunt lives in Bovel (look it up, it's damn rural). To get to her place, she usually refers to "la route de Baulon", "la route de Redon", "la route de Quimper" etc. Actually, a lot of people in Bretagne at least talk in terms of where roads lead to: la route de Saint-Malo, la route de Quimper, la route de Vannes.

Yeah, most people will do that with most roads around here, too. Only the most generally known roads (the A661, the A5, the B3...) are usually referred to be number.

[Hash]

Yeah, you're damn lucky with your regional road networks, never been, but I watched maps and I've been told, and all are 'free'.

Common idea is that the Acte d'union of 1532 forced France to guarantee the free nature of roads in Bretagne (though there is a péage in Loire-Atlantique). Apparently they wanted to build us a toll highway in the 60s-70s but the FLB blew it up.

There is one stretch of highway in Bretagne, l'A84, though the péage is located in Normandy.