Is Anne Frank in Hell?
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jmfcst
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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2010, 10:02:20 AM »

so, let me get this straight:  you believe the sufferings of Anne Frank should have earned her a ticket to Heaven? 

Christianity views salvation as a gift of God, not as something than can be earned.  Period.  Sorry you don't accept such a basic premise.

Well if you're an adherent to the unofficial churches (i.e. Protestant ones) I can see someone believing that.

It's quite clear to me that Jesus's message was love and acceptance for all people. I believe in Jesus, but I think deep down we're all Christians. I also believe that salvation is found through faith and good works. If someone is a good person then yes, they have earned a spot in heaven. God looks at people deep down inside, not just what faith they subscribe to.

1) God is Love:  It’s a foolish argument to take the scriptures relating to the love of God and use them to ignore the scriptures relating to God’s eternal judgment and wrath.  I am not interested in playing that kind of game with scripture.

2) Regarding the salvation of the Jews, Jesus proclaimed to the Jews:

John 8:24”I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”
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jmfcst
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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2010, 10:41:58 AM »

You have the belief that Jesus was for the Jews only or only for those who converted to Christianity? I don't see the point in the divine choosing a religion. Yes, Jesus took on the religion of the culture around him and if not he would have been viewed as an outcast. No nothing can earn going to heaven because humans are sinful and imperfect. This is why Christ HAD TO die for our sins. Only arrogance assumes it was for one particular group of people.

probably the dumbest paragraph you have written to date - and that is saying something.

Jesus did NOT take on the relgion around him, because the religion of the day did not understand scritpure, rather he stated the scriptures were all about him:

John 5:37 "You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

So even though the scriptures are all about Christ (Christianity 101), you approach the bible as if the scriptures were just something Jesus adopted simply in order to make a point.  You are simply blind and stand in disagreement with every basic concept of the bible. You have magnitudes more screwed up theology than even the Jews who opposed Jesus in his day. 

I can’t even think of a single character in the bible, believer or unbeliever, with whom you have anything theological in common.  You have uniquely screwed your brain.  And I’m not the only saying it – everyone on this board is saying it.  You, Derek, are the only topic everyone on this board agrees upon.
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hcallega
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« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2010, 11:24:07 AM »

You have the belief that Jesus was for the Jews only or only for those who converted to Christianity? I don't see the point in the divine choosing a religion. Yes, Jesus took on the religion of the culture around him and if not he would have been viewed as an outcast. No nothing can earn going to heaven because humans are sinful and imperfect. This is why Christ HAD TO die for our sins. Only arrogance assumes it was for one particular group of people.

probably the dumbest paragraph you have written to date - and that is saying something.

Jesus did NOT take on the relgion around him, because the religion of the day did not understand scritpure, rather he stated the scriptures were all about him:

John 5:37 "You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

So even though the scriptures are all about Christ (Christianity 101), you approach the bible as if the scriptures were just something Jesus adopted simply in order to make a point.  You are simply blind and stand in disagreement with every basic concept of the bible. You have magnitudes more screwed up theology than even the Jews who opposed Jesus in his day. 

I can’t even think of a single character in the bible, believer or unbeliever, with whom you have anything theological in common.  You have uniquely screwed your brain.  And I’m not the only saying it – everyone on this board is saying it.  You, Derek, are the only topic everyone on this board agrees upon.


Actually for once I am with Derek! He has a firmer understanding of the Bible than you do! Simply believing everything assembled in a book written by man as absolutely true is foolish, not to mention dangerous. God gave us free will for a reason. If we do good in this world, and if we believe in good then you will find eternal salvation. I believe that good is God, that when we do good we become closer to God. Now I do believe that being a Christian gives you an advantage in going to Heaven, but the only people who I believe go to Hell are the ones who do bad or turn their back on God. By turning your back I mean forsaking all that God taught, not just God himself.

Also, I do believe in much that is written in the Bible. But I also recognize that it was assembled by men, in some cases through divine intervention. Men are fallible, and therefore can make decisions that they see as a personal advantage to themselves. 
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« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2010, 11:56:48 AM »

Actually for once I am with Derek! He has a firmer understanding of the Bible than you do! Simply believing everything assembled in a book written by man as absolutely true is foolish, not to mention dangerous. God gave us free will for a reason. If we do good in this world, and if we believe in good then you will find eternal salvation. I believe that good is God, that when we do good we become closer to God. Now I do believe that being a Christian gives you an advantage in going to Heaven, but the only people who I believe go to Hell are the ones who do bad or turn their back on God. By turning your back I mean forsaking all that God taught, not just God himself.

Also, I do believe in much that is written in the Bible. But I also recognize that it was assembled by men, in some cases through divine intervention. Men are fallible, and therefore can make decisions that they see as a personal advantage to themselves.  

So, you reject the bible as the word of God and you think that since men are fallible, God gave you a supposedly infallible free will in order to determine which part of the bible is true, as if you yourself werent' infallible?!  That doesn’t make sense.

The simple matter is…if you don’t believe the scripture, you have nothing in common with the teachings of the Apostles:

Acts 24:14 “I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets”

As for me, I want to remove any differences between my faith and the apostles’ teachings:

Acts 2:42 “They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching”

Adios.  May the free will force be with you.
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hcallega
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« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2010, 06:40:14 PM »

Actually for once I am with Derek! He has a firmer understanding of the Bible than you do! Simply believing everything assembled in a book written by man as absolutely true is foolish, not to mention dangerous. God gave us free will for a reason. If we do good in this world, and if we believe in good then you will find eternal salvation. I believe that good is God, that when we do good we become closer to God. Now I do believe that being a Christian gives you an advantage in going to Heaven, but the only people who I believe go to Hell are the ones who do bad or turn their back on God. By turning your back I mean forsaking all that God taught, not just God himself.

Also, I do believe in much that is written in the Bible. But I also recognize that it was assembled by men, in some cases through divine intervention. Men are fallible, and therefore can make decisions that they see as a personal advantage to themselves. 

So, you reject the bible as the word of God and you think that since men are fallible, God gave you a supposedly infallible free will in order to determine which part of the bible is true, as if you yourself werent' infallible?!  That doesn’t make sense.

The simple matter is…if you don’t believe the scripture, you have nothing in common with the teachings of the Apostles:

Acts 24:14 “I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets”

As for me, I want to remove any differences between my faith and the apostles’ teachings:

Acts 2:42 “They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching”

Adios.  May the free will force be with you.


I think you're misinterpreting me. I believe that the Bible is the word of the Lord. HOWEVER, certain parts were clearly left out that may also have been the word of God. These things are both very clear. Now if someone with a certain view point was assembling the Bible, then it is possible that certain parts were included or left out due to that view point. Also, while I believe it is the word of God it is also metaphorical, and to take it literally is to belittle God. After all, a large part of Christianity is a belief in mystery, so to claim a full understanding of God or the Bible is foolish. Translations also change the emphasis of certain things, as our previous debate over homosexuality exposed.

Anyway, I am a Christian who believes fully in Jesus Christ and his word. All I'm saying is don't pretend to know or understand everything in the Bible, or about God, Heaven, or Hell.
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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2010, 09:08:50 PM »

The concept of heaven and hell is so infantile it can only be manmade.  People are the product of their genetics and environment.  The idea that any person deserves to suffer or be rewarded for eternity based on how their genetics and environment shape who they are (or even more asinine; based on their belief or lack thereof in poorly written bronze age scriptures) demonstrates a complete lack of understanding in human nature and sense of moral judgment.

The scriptures weren't just poorly written. That was the thought process back then. People often wonder why they find 4 stories of the same thing right in a row and at times 2 stories woven together. However, the A B C D categorical thinking did not exist yet. That's more of an Aristotelian concept that started with animal classification. Today we think it's primitive but it's actually quite complex. It wasn't how a story was told or what version of it, but the moral lesson that occurs and that's true for alot of ancient mythologies.
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« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2010, 12:50:01 AM »

I think you're misinterpreting me. I believe that the Bible is the word of the Lord. HOWEVER, certain parts were clearly left out that may also have been the word of God. These things are both very clear. Now if someone with a certain view point was assembling the Bible, then it is possible that certain parts were included or left out due to that view point. Also, while I believe it is the word of God it is also metaphorical, and to take it literally is to belittle God. After all, a large part of Christianity is a belief in mystery, so to claim a full understanding of God or the Bible is foolish. Translations also change the emphasis of certain things, as our previous debate over homosexuality exposed.

Anyway, I am a Christian who believes fully in Jesus Christ and his word. All I'm saying is don't pretend to know or understand everything in the Bible, or about God, Heaven, or Hell.

What, exactly, do you think was left out of the bible’s plan of salvation?  Does not the bible state that those who have not heard the gospel are in darkness and under the power of Satan? And doesn’t the bible state the message of the gospel is being spread in order to that those same people might believe in order to  receive forgiveness of their sins?  And doesn’t the bible state that as of right now, belief in Jesus is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins?

It seems you think something was left out simply because you disagree with what the bible/ already has iin it.  But anything you attempt to bring in is going to contradict both the OT and NT, for even Moses warned the Jews concerning their acceptance of the Messiah;

Dt 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.”

Also, you’ll have to refresh my memory regarding our previous debate over homosexuality, because I am able to take the scripture exactly how it is written in regard to those passages and view the bible being in total harmony on this issue from cover to cover.
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« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2010, 02:47:26 AM »

I think you're misinterpreting me. I believe that the Bible is the word of the Lord. HOWEVER, certain parts were clearly left out that may also have been the word of God. These things are both very clear. Now if someone with a certain view point was assembling the Bible, then it is possible that certain parts were included or left out due to that view point. Also, while I believe it is the word of God it is also metaphorical, and to take it literally is to belittle God. After all, a large part of Christianity is a belief in mystery, so to claim a full understanding of God or the Bible is foolish. Translations also change the emphasis of certain things, as our previous debate over homosexuality exposed.

Anyway, I am a Christian who believes fully in Jesus Christ and his word. All I'm saying is don't pretend to know or understand everything in the Bible, or about God, Heaven, or Hell.

What, exactly, do you think was left out of the bible’s plan of salvation?  Does not the bible state that those who have not heard the gospel are in darkness and under the power of Satan? And doesn’t the bible state the message of the gospel is being spread in order to that those same people might believe in order to  receive forgiveness of their sins?  And doesn’t the bible state that as of right now, belief in Jesus is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins?

It seems you think something was left out simply because you disagree with what the bible/ already has iin it.  But anything you attempt to bring in is going to contradict both the OT and NT, for even Moses warned the Jews concerning their acceptance of the Messiah;

Dt 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.”

Also, you’ll have to refresh my memory regarding our previous debate over homosexuality, because I am able to take the scripture exactly how it is written in regard to those passages and view the bible being in total harmony on this issue from cover to cover.


Jesus died for your forgiveness. No amount of believing or good works can save you. As a Christian you should know that. The only reason the Bible opposes homosexuality is because it was written by Jews who despised other cultures who accepted it. Belief in Jesus can't save you buddy. Only Jesus can save you and he did it by dying on the cross.
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Torie
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« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2010, 12:21:59 PM »

Most of my friends are or will be in whatever hell is out there, and so I wouldn't sweat it. Unless of course, you are Muslim, and get 72 virgins, except well, I personally would prefer the objects of my affection to have a much higher skill level than that. So, screw it.
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opebo
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« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2010, 02:08:14 AM »

So, to clarify, jmfcst, Anne Frank is in hell.
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Derek
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« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2010, 09:28:20 AM »

I think you're misinterpreting me. I believe that the Bible is the word of the Lord. HOWEVER, certain parts were clearly left out that may also have been the word of God. These things are both very clear. Now if someone with a certain view point was assembling the Bible, then it is possible that certain parts were included or left out due to that view point. Also, while I believe it is the word of God it is also metaphorical, and to take it literally is to belittle God. After all, a large part of Christianity is a belief in mystery, so to claim a full understanding of God or the Bible is foolish. Translations also change the emphasis of certain things, as our previous debate over homosexuality exposed.

Anyway, I am a Christian who believes fully in Jesus Christ and his word. All I'm saying is don't pretend to know or understand everything in the Bible, or about God, Heaven, or Hell.

What, exactly, do you think was left out of the bible’s plan of salvation?  Does not the bible state that those who have not heard the gospel are in darkness and under the power of Satan? And doesn’t the bible state the message of the gospel is being spread in order to that those same people might believe in order to  receive forgiveness of their sins?  And doesn’t the bible state that as of right now, belief in Jesus is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins?

It seems you think something was left out simply because you disagree with what the bible/ already has iin it.  But anything you attempt to bring in is going to contradict both the OT and NT, for even Moses warned the Jews concerning their acceptance of the Messiah;

Dt 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.”

Also, you’ll have to refresh my memory regarding our previous debate over homosexuality, because I am able to take the scripture exactly how it is written in regard to those passages and view the bible being in total harmony on this issue from cover to cover.


Deuteronomy was forged by Baruch. If you read Jeremiah 8:8 it even says so.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2010, 06:14:05 PM »

Jewish people sure do go to hell.  Because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of our Savior, Christ Jesus. 
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« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2010, 06:33:58 PM »

Jewish people sure do go to hell.  Because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of our Savior, Christ Jesus. 

Thank you; another reason why humans show more compassion than the Christian god.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2010, 06:45:22 PM »

Jewish people sure do go to hell.  Because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of our Savior, Christ Jesus. 


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hcallega
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« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2010, 10:05:30 PM »

I think you're misinterpreting me. I believe that the Bible is the word of the Lord. HOWEVER, certain parts were clearly left out that may also have been the word of God. These things are both very clear. Now if someone with a certain view point was assembling the Bible, then it is possible that certain parts were included or left out due to that view point. Also, while I believe it is the word of God it is also metaphorical, and to take it literally is to belittle God. After all, a large part of Christianity is a belief in mystery, so to claim a full understanding of God or the Bible is foolish. Translations also change the emphasis of certain things, as our previous debate over homosexuality exposed.

Anyway, I am a Christian who believes fully in Jesus Christ and his word. All I'm saying is don't pretend to know or understand everything in the Bible, or about God, Heaven, or Hell.

What, exactly, do you think was left out of the bible’s plan of salvation?  Does not the bible state that those who have not heard the gospel are in darkness and under the power of Satan? And doesn’t the bible state the message of the gospel is being spread in order to that those same people might believe in order to  receive forgiveness of their sins?  And doesn’t the bible state that as of right now, belief in Jesus is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins?

It seems you think something was left out simply because you disagree with what the bible/ already has iin it.  But anything you attempt to bring in is going to contradict both the OT and NT, for even Moses warned the Jews concerning their acceptance of the Messiah;

Dt 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.”

Also, you’ll have to refresh my memory regarding our previous debate over homosexuality, because I am able to take the scripture exactly how it is written in regard to those passages and view the bible being in total harmony on this issue from cover to cover.


Right because you know exactly what every implied statement or metaphor that may no longer culturally apply means today. You always are reading what is absolutely the correct translation of the Bible. There's no debate, JMCFEST knows everything about God and Christianity. After all, he can quote the Bible.
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Derek
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« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2010, 10:41:39 PM »

Jewish people sure do go to hell.  Because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of our Savior, Christ Jesus. 

Jesus died for the Jews. You didn't learn that in Sunday school?
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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2010, 02:54:40 AM »

I think you're misinterpreting me. I believe that the Bible is the word of the Lord. HOWEVER, certain parts were clearly left out that may also have been the word of God. These things are both very clear. Now if someone with a certain view point was assembling the Bible, then it is possible that certain parts were included or left out due to that view point. Also, while I believe it is the word of God it is also metaphorical, and to take it literally is to belittle God. After all, a large part of Christianity is a belief in mystery, so to claim a full understanding of God or the Bible is foolish. Translations also change the emphasis of certain things, as our previous debate over homosexuality exposed.

Anyway, I am a Christian who believes fully in Jesus Christ and his word. All I'm saying is don't pretend to know or understand everything in the Bible, or about God, Heaven, or Hell.

What, exactly, do you think was left out of the bible’s plan of salvation?  Does not the bible state that those who have not heard the gospel are in darkness and under the power of Satan? And doesn’t the bible state the message of the gospel is being spread in order to that those same people might believe in order to  receive forgiveness of their sins?  And doesn’t the bible state that as of right now, belief in Jesus is the only way to receive forgiveness of sins?

It seems you think something was left out simply because you disagree with what the bible/ already has iin it.  But anything you attempt to bring in is going to contradict both the OT and NT, for even Moses warned the Jews concerning their acceptance of the Messiah;

Dt 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.”

Also, you’ll have to refresh my memory regarding our previous debate over homosexuality, because I am able to take the scripture exactly how it is written in regard to those passages and view the bible being in total harmony on this issue from cover to cover.


So you believe that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus as their lord and savior goes to hell, even if they have never heard of Christianity before? Quite weird.

Chrisitianity's view that all humans are sinners is pretty f'ed up as well. And the obsession with quoting specific bible passages as proof is downright hilarious. Are Islam and Judaism also so precise? Eastern religions certainly don't follow some archaic book to a T and view it as some unquestionable truth.
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« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2010, 03:20:19 AM »

Are Islam and Judaism also so precise? Eastern religions certainly don't follow some archaic book to a T and view it as some unquestionable truth.

Orthodox Judaism is very precise and does view the OT as unquestionable truth (at least as explained by the Talmud).

However, they do not believe to have the only path to Heaven. They believe Judaism is not just a religion, but also constitutes a "people", or a "race" (it is possible, but very difficult, to convert, and it is not encouraged), with special responsibilities from God. However, righteous people from all nations and races will also go to heaven.
This would basically mean keeping the Seven Laws of Noah, but there would be leeway for those, for example, who don't understand the severity of those laws.

One of the results of these beliefs is that a Jew has to do much more then a non-Jew to merit going to Heaven, since he has far more laws, and far greater responsibilities, although Jews are given slightly better "let-offs" for involuntary actions and lack of knowledge.
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« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2010, 12:05:15 PM »

Jewish people sure do go to hell.  Because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of our Savior, Christ Jesus. 

Jesus was Jewish.  Hurr hurr.

You're missing the point here.  From a Christian perspective, Jews would be condemned precisely because the Savior was sent to them and they ignored and rejected his message.

I'm not a Christian, but I have difficulty understanding how anyone could interpret Christianity as saying other than that only faith (sola fides) can save.  It's pretty clear in the text.
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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2010, 12:44:23 PM »

You're missing the point here.  From a Christian perspective, Jews would be condemned precisely because the Savior was sent to them and they ignored and rejected his message.

i disagree - condemnation comes from being a sinner, not from rejecting the gospel.  the gospel is an agent of salvation, not condemnation.

---

I'm not a Christian, but I have difficulty understanding how anyone could interpret Christianity as saying other than that only faith (sola fides) can save.  It's pretty clear in the text.

agreed.
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« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2010, 07:21:22 PM »

Jewish people sure do go to hell.  Because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of our Savior, Christ Jesus. 

Jesus was Jewish.  Hurr hurr.

You're missing the point here.  From a Christian perspective, Jews would be condemned precisely because the Savior was sent to them and they ignored and rejected his message.

I'm not a Christian, but I have difficulty understanding how anyone could interpret Christianity as saying other than that only faith (sola fides) can save.  It's pretty clear in the text.

Some scholars interpret Jesus as dying for the Jews only though. Those who believe and did not first become Jewish are not part of the chosen people if you go by certain verses.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2010, 07:29:16 PM »

St. Paul disagrees with you.
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« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2010, 08:14:54 PM »

Jewish people sure do go to hell.  Because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of our Savior, Christ Jesus. 

Jesus was Jewish.  Hurr hurr.

You're missing the point here.  From a Christian perspective, Jews would be condemned precisely because the Savior was sent to them and they ignored and rejected his message.

I'm not a Christian, but I have difficulty understanding how anyone could interpret Christianity as saying other than that only faith (sola fides) can save.  It's pretty clear in the text.

Some scholars interpret Jesus as dying for the Jews only though. Those who believe and did not first become Jewish are not part of the chosen people if you go by certain verses.

Interpret it that way based on what exactly? And who are these "scholars"?
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« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2010, 10:30:05 PM »

Jewish people sure do go to hell.  Because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of our Savior, Christ Jesus. 

Jesus was Jewish.  Hurr hurr.

You're missing the point here.  From a Christian perspective, Jews would be condemned precisely because the Savior was sent to them and they ignored and rejected his message.

I'm not a Christian, but I have difficulty understanding how anyone could interpret Christianity as saying other than that only faith (sola fides) can save.  It's pretty clear in the text.

Some scholars interpret Jesus as dying for the Jews only though. Those who believe and did not first become Jewish are not part of the chosen people if you go by certain verses.

Interpret it that way based on what exactly? And who are these "scholars"?

Look for centuries the Jews believed that a messiah would save them and eventually along came Jesus. Most Jews rejected him to be the messiah. While the act of life coming from a death was not unique to the Jews, Jesus spoke of a new direction for the Jews. That is where the messianic Jewish philosophy comes from. I can't believe you've never heard of this and to name scholars would be a waste of time. Stop trying to pick at every little thing and argue your own ideas once in a while. Why do you disagree that Jesus wasn't exclusively for the Jews? Or do you agree and just have nothing better to do than come on here and ask for a scholar's name? http://www.messianicjews.info/general/faq.html Here is a link with some 101 facts about Messianic Judaism.
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« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2010, 10:35:38 PM »

First off, your version renders the story meaningless.  Lot's wife died in the incident.  She doesn't reappear in story.  Second, my Oxford Study Bible, an academic Bible painstakingly translated, has this: Genesis 19:26 "But Lot's wife looked back, and she turned into a pillar of salt.". The only footnote to the verse just points out that an oddly-shaped column in the area has been associated with Lot's wife straight to the present day.
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