Do you find the historical myth that there was little Atheism...

[Tetro Kornbluth]

... in the 'west' (wherever that is) prior to WWII extremely irritating. It is yet another boomertastic example of historical revisionism-becomes-the-legend gone amok. Intellectual Atheism has a long (and unbroken) tradition in Europe from the 18th Century onwards... so yeah. (Though 'Atheism' throughout that time can not really be held to be intellectually consistent bar its non-belief in God, it's Atheism's opponents which make it seem like an intellectually coherent category... especially today in America where it is often (rightly) associated with 'liberals').

Answers on a postcard

[Filuwaúrdjan]

No, I find it hilarious.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

No, I find it hilarious.

Well it is amusing at first but then when you read so much time and time again....

Point accepted however.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

You mean the myth that "Almost everyone between the Middle Ages and WWII were Christians."

Right?

[The Mikado]

I haven't heard much of that, though I have heard the almost-as-stupid argument that there was little-to-no Atheism pre-mid-19th century.  Then again, most of the people I talk to are aware of Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud, at least.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

No, I find historical myths (a redundancy indeed) extremely useful, and you should too.

Actually that is correct o/c. But oft repeated ones are tending to get on my nerves (not that I don't think they aren't very revealing about certain things...)

[Roemerista]

On the question above, side-stepping the obvious stupidity of Beck and Palin,

I can honestly say no it does not annoy me. It is what people do.  To romanticize another place, and make it the image of your ideals. For some reason some people romanticize the USSR as some communist utopia that never existed, whereas some think of the 1950s as some superior place in time, which certainly is not the case for obvious reasons.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

On the question above, side-stepping the obvious stupidity of Beck and Palin,

I can honestly say no it does not annoy me. It is what people do.  To romanticize another place, and make it the image of your ideals. For some reason some people romanticize the USSR as some communist utopia that never existed, whereas some think of the 1950s as some superior place in time, which certainly is not the case for obvious reasons.

I don't think this thread is referring to nostalgia or idealism of the past... actually I think I'm criticizing the opposite.

[Vepres]

I can see where the perception comes from. After all, I highly doubt publicly expressing explicit atheism was common as it wouldn't be socially tolerated at the time.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I can see where the perception comes from. After all, I highly doubt publicly expressing explicit atheism was common as it wouldn't be socially tolerated at the time.

It was though. That's the point.

[Vepres]

I can see where the perception comes from. After all, I highly doubt publicly expressing explicit atheism was common as it wouldn't be socially tolerated at the time.

It was though. That's the point.

Well, what era are you talking about? If we're talking the 15th century or something, than it wasn't. If we're talking more around the 18th century, then yeah, of course it was tolerated.

[Vepres]

I can see where the perception comes from. After all, I highly doubt publicly expressing explicit atheism was common as it wouldn't be socially tolerated at the time.

It was though. That's the point.

Well, what era are you talking about? If we're talking the 15th century or something, than it wasn't. If we're talking more around the 18th century, then yeah, of course it was tolerated.

Oh, I see. 18th century onward. I've never had that perception about the era. I always associated that era with secularization (relative of course).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The posts about Glenn Beck and Thomas Paine have been spun of to a separate thread: Glenn Beck's use of Thomas Paine.

[Derek]

If you're talking about historical atheism in our country it really didn't exist until after Darwin which was incredibly flawed. Prior to that we were founded on the freedom of religion suggesting that Protestantism is the American way.

[All Along The Watchtower]

If you're talking about historical atheism in our country it really didn't exist until after Darwin which was incredibly flawed. Prior to that we were founded on the freedom of religion suggesting that Protestantism is the American way.

You really don't know what you're talking about.

[Derek]

If you're talking about historical atheism in our country it really didn't exist until after Darwin which was incredibly flawed. Prior to that we were founded on the freedom of religion suggesting that Protestantism is the American way.

You really don't know what you're talking about.

We weren't founded on the freedom of religion? Atheism before Darwin was unheard of. Not flawed? Ok, you be the teacher and enlighten us big guy.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

when you suggest there was more than a little atheism in the 18th century, what proportion of the population are we talking about?

[The Mikado]

It depends on a lot of factors, but Jacobins (both French and their English and American wannabes) had a large proportion of atheists in their ranks (many inspired by Paine's The Rights of Man).  Freethought and Unitarianism had long pedigrees, though not quite athiest.  Edward Gibbon, for example, was tremendously down on Christianity and he was an extremely prominent author.

[afleitch]

Why didn't I spot this. It was something I did an essay on a number of years ago.

Probably best to summarise.

Given that society was framed by 'Christian' and 'non Christian' at that time it's worth while looking at the 'non Christian' which includes other religions, superstition, paganism and athiesm. It's prevailant in iconography; buildings (inclusing Christian ones...) are often awash with pagan iconography (green man etc). There are wonderful primary sources existing of the elite (who could write) and of the common populace (who couldn't but it was written by the elites so has to be viewed objectively) celaring in correspondence and private conversation that Christianity was essentially hogwash. Given the power and authority churches had, including power over life or making your life very difficult indeed, it was a topic often discussed amongst friends. Some of the court testimony of those convicted of convicted of 'blasphemy' etc (I still hold some source meterial, mostly involving those arrested for homosexual acts) demonstrate, even amongst the lowest classes the most enlightened concepts of what we understand to be liberalism and pre-dates the collected works of the greats. 

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I agree with the above two posters. Though I'm a bit skeptical about Afleitch means as "liberalism"... I meant Anti-Established Religion is very, very old in European History but I don't think we should look at purely through the purely 'modern' lens he is suggesting.

[minionofmidas]

Badger is delicious.

Or so they say. Don't think I could eat two and a half badgers in one sitting, though.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I split off the libertarian/Christian topics into a separate thread You can only be a libertarian if you are a Christian and moved it to the Religion & Philosophy board.