Department of Federal Elections

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

In 9 minutes I close the thread and check to see that everything is in order.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'd appreciate a concordance or description of the differences between HEART's count and DoFE's.

[Yelnoc]

Shall I conduct a third, tri-partisan count?

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

My first ballot numbers are off for you, Nathan, because I have #11 twice.

I am checking second ballot right now.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

Final round 1
Cincinnatus
==========
Cincinnatus (JBach717)
-
Shua - Valid 1
ZuWo - Valid 2
Hermit (Pingvin99) - Valid 3
Keystone Phil - Valid 4
Cincinnatus - Valid 5
AndrewPA - Valid 6
Marokai - Valid 7
Junkie - Valid 8
Winfield - Valid 9
brandonh - Valid 10
Franzl - Valid 11
polnut - Valid 12
Snowstalker - Valid 13
AHDuke99 - Valid 14
Yankee - Valid 15
Simfan34 - Valid 16
NHI - Valid 17
cinyc - Valid  18
Dereich - Valid  19
Reaganfan - Valid 20
MaxQue - Valid 21
homelycooking - Valid 22
NiK - Valid 23
dead0man - Valid 24
filliatre - Valid 25
MOPolitico - Valid 26
Inks.LWC - Valid 27
JohanusCalvinusLibertas - Valid 28
tmthforu94 - Valid 29
A-Bob - Valid 30
Progressive Realist - Valid 31
Averroës Nix - Valid 32


==========
Nathan
-
Scott - Valid 1
Fritz - Valid 2
Kalwejt - Valid 3
Antonio V - Valid 4
Frodo - Valid 5
Hawkeye59 - Valid 6
Ebowed - Valid 7
Tender Branson - Valid 8
Fuzzybigfoot - Valid 9
Jackson - Valid 10
RFK - Valid 11
Napoleon - Valid 12
oakvale - Valid 13
opebo - Valid 14
NVGonzalez (antwnzrr) - Valid 15
RodPresident - Valid 16
JulioMadrid - Valid 17
Nathan - Valid 18
Meeker - Valid  19
BRTD - Valid 20
Seattle - Valid 21
Smash255 - Valid 22
snowguy716 - Valid 23
Eraserhead - Valid  24
Hashemite - Valid 25
CultureKing - Valid 26
realisticidealist - Valid 27
Obamaisdabest - Valid 28
mondale84 - Valid 29
belgiansocialist - Valid 30
Badger - Valid 31
nclib - Valid 32
Lief - Valid (First write-in is not accepting write-ins) 33
ArchangelZero - Valid 34
DrScholl - Valid 35
Ghost_white - Valid 36
EarlAW - Valid 37
boris78 - Valid 38
Wormyguy - Valid 39
Alcon - Valid 40
bgwah - Valid 41
Bacon King - Valid 42
==========
Yelnoc  
-
Dallasfan65 - Valid (2P: Nathan) 1
Sewer - Valid (2P: Nathan) 2
Dr. Cynic - Valid (2P: Nathan) 3
Gustaf - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 4
FallenMorgan - Valid (2P: Nathan) 5
Lewis - Valid 6
TJ in Cleve - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 7
angus - Valid 8
ChairmanSanchez - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 9
ilikeverin - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 10
Mechaman - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 11
20RP12 - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 12
Thomas D - Valid (2P: Nathan)  13
Cathcon - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 14
Torie - Valid(2P: Cincinnatus)   15
sbane - Valid  (2P: Cincinnatus) 16
Conley - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 17
benconstine - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 18
MilesC56 - Valid (2P: Nathan) 19
Jbrase - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 20
PiT - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 21
Wonkish1 - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 22
Sam Spade - Valid (2P: Cin) 23

==========
Rowan
-
Rowan - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 1


==========
Invalid: Clarence, Teddy

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

HEART and DoFE agree on the above

[Simfan34]

This is becoming quite interesting...

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

UNDERGOING COMPARISON TO HEART


Final round 2

Cincinnatus (JBach717) - Shua - Valid ZuWo - Valid Hermit (Pingvin99) - Valid Cincinnatus - Valid AndrewPA - Valid Marokai - Valid Junkie - Valid Winfield - Valid brandonh - Valid Franzl - Valid polnut - Valid Snowstalker - Valid AHDuke99 - Valid Yankee - Valid Simfan34 - Valid NHI - Valid cinyc - Valid Dereich - Valid Reaganfan - Valid MaxQue - Valid homelycooking - Valid NiK - Valid dead0man - Valid filliatre - Valid MOPolitico - Valid Inks.LWC - Valid JohanusCalvinusLibertas - Valid tmthforu94 - Valid A-Bob - Valid Gustaf - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) TJ in Cleve - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) ChairmanSanchez - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) ilikeverin - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Mechaman - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 20RP12 - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Cathcon - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Torie - Valid(2P: Cincinnatus) sbane - Valid  (2P: Cincinnatus) Conley - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) benconstine - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Jbrase - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Rowan - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Progressive Realist - Valid Jbrase - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) PiT - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Wonkish1 - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Averroës Nix - Valid Keystone Phil - Valid Sam Spade - Valid (2P: Cin)

Nathan - Scott - Valid Fritz - Valid Kalwejt - Valid Antonio V - Valid Frodo - Valid Hawkeye59 - Valid Ebowed - Valid Tender Branson - Valid Fuzzybigfoot - Valid Jackson - Valid RFK - Valid Bacon King - Valid Napoleon - Valid oakvale - Valid opebo - Valid NVGonzalez (antwnzrr) - Valid RodPresident - Valid JulioMadrid - Valid Nathan - Valid Meeker - Valid BRTD - Valid Seattle - Valid Smash255 - Valid snowguy716 - Valid Eraserhead - Valid Hashemite - Valid CultureKing - Valid realisticidealist - Valid Dallasfan65 - Valid (2P: Nathan) Sewer - Valid (2P: Nathan) Dr. Cynic - Valid (2P: Nathan) FallenMorgan - Valid (2P: Nathan) MilesC56 - Valid (2P: Nathan) Thomas D - Valid (2P: Nathan) Obamaisdabest - Valid mondale84 - Valid belgiansocialist - Valid Badger - Valid nclib - Valid Lief - Valid ArchangelZero - Valid DrScholl - Valid Ghost_white - Valid EarlAW - Valid boris78 - Valid Wormyguy - Valid Alcon - Valid bgwah - Valid

Exhausted - 1 angus - Valid 2 Lewis - Valid 3 4 5 6 Invalid 7 - 8 Teddy 9 clarence 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49

[homelycooking]

UNDERGOING COMPARISON TO HEART


Final round 2

Cincinnatus (JBach717) - Shua - Valid ZuWo - Valid Hermit (Pingvin99) - Valid Cincinnatus - Valid AndrewPA - Valid Marokai - Valid Junkie - Valid Winfield - Valid brandonh - Valid Franzl - Valid polnut - Valid Snowstalker - Valid AHDuke99 - Valid Yankee - Valid Simfan34 - Valid NHI - Valid cinyc - Valid Dereich - Valid Reaganfan - Valid MaxQue - Valid homelycooking - Valid NiK - Valid dead0man - Valid filliatre - Valid MOPolitico - Valid Inks.LWC - Valid JohanusCalvinusLibertas - Valid tmthforu94 - Valid A-Bob - Valid Gustaf - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) TJ in Cleve - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) ChairmanSanchez - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) ilikeverin - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Mechaman - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 20RP12 - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Cathcon - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Torie - Valid(2P: Cincinnatus) sbane - Valid  (2P: Cincinnatus) Conley - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) benconstine - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Jbrase - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Rowan - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Progressive Realist - Valid Jbrase - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) PiT - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Wonkish1 - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Averroës Nix - Valid Keystone Phil - Valid Sam Spade - Valid (2P: Cin)

Nathan - Scott - Valid Fritz - Valid Kalwejt - Valid Antonio V - Valid Frodo - Valid Hawkeye59 - Valid Ebowed - Valid Tender Branson - Valid Fuzzybigfoot - Valid Jackson - Valid RFK - Valid Bacon King - Valid Napoleon - Valid oakvale - Valid opebo - Valid NVGonzalez (antwnzrr) - Valid RodPresident - Valid JulioMadrid - Valid Nathan - Valid Meeker - Valid BRTD - Valid Seattle - Valid Smash255 - Valid snowguy716 - Valid Eraserhead - Valid Hashemite - Valid CultureKing - Valid realisticidealist - Valid Dallasfan65 - Valid (2P: Nathan) Sewer - Valid (2P: Nathan) Dr. Cynic - Valid (2P: Nathan) FallenMorgan - Valid (2P: Nathan) MilesC56 - Valid (2P: Nathan) Thomas D - Valid (2P: Nathan) Obamaisdabest - Valid mondale84 - Valid belgiansocialist - Valid Badger - Valid nclib - Valid Lief - Valid ArchangelZero - Valid DrScholl - Valid Ghost_white - Valid EarlAW - Valid boris78 - Valid Wormyguy - Valid Alcon - Valid bgwah - Valid

Exhausted - 1 angus - Valid 2 Lewis - Valid 3 4 5 6 Invalid 7 - 8 Teddy 9 clarence 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49

Your count has an error, Teddy.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

Removed additional jbrase on the grounds there's only one

Final round 2

Cincinnatus (JBach717) - Shua - Valid ZuWo - Valid Hermit (Pingvin99) - Valid Cincinnatus - Valid AndrewPA - Valid Marokai - Valid Junkie - Valid Winfield - Valid brandonh - Valid Franzl - Valid polnut - Valid Snowstalker - Valid AHDuke99 - Valid Yankee - Valid Simfan34 - Valid NHI - Valid cinyc - Valid Dereich - Valid Reaganfan - Valid MaxQue - Valid homelycooking - Valid NiK - Valid dead0man - Valid filliatre - Valid MOPolitico - Valid Inks.LWC - Valid JohanusCalvinusLibertas - Valid tmthforu94 - Valid A-Bob - Valid Gustaf - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) TJ in Cleve - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) ChairmanSanchez - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) ilikeverin - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Mechaman - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) 20RP12 - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Cathcon - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Torie - Valid(2P: Cincinnatus) sbane - Valid  (2P: Cincinnatus) Conley - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) benconstine - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Jbrase - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Rowan - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Progressive Realist - Valid PiT - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Wonkish1 - Valid (2P: Cincinnatus) Averroës Nix - Valid Keystone Phil - Valid Sam Spade - Valid (2P: Cin)

Nathan - Scott - Valid Fritz - Valid Kalwejt - Valid Antonio V - Valid Frodo - Valid Hawkeye59 - Valid Ebowed - Valid Tender Branson - Valid Fuzzybigfoot - Valid Jackson - Valid RFK - Valid Bacon King - Valid Napoleon - Valid oakvale - Valid opebo - Valid NVGonzalez (antwnzrr) - Valid RodPresident - Valid JulioMadrid - Valid Nathan - Valid Meeker - Valid BRTD - Valid Seattle - Valid Smash255 - Valid snowguy716 - Valid Eraserhead - Valid Hashemite - Valid CultureKing - Valid realisticidealist - Valid Dallasfan65 - Valid (2P: Nathan) Sewer - Valid (2P: Nathan) Dr. Cynic - Valid (2P: Nathan) FallenMorgan - Valid (2P: Nathan) MilesC56 - Valid (2P: Nathan) Thomas D - Valid (2P: Nathan) Obamaisdabest - Valid mondale84 - Valid belgiansocialist - Valid Badger - Valid nclib - Valid Lief - Valid ArchangelZero - Valid DrScholl - Valid Ghost_white - Valid EarlAW - Valid boris78 - Valid Wormyguy - Valid Alcon - Valid bgwah - Valid

Exhausted - 1 angus - Valid 2 Lewis - Valid 3 4 5 6 Invalid 7 - 8 Teddy 9 clarence 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48

edit as I'm posting as it tells me about my new post

thanks

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

This brings us back to this:

This being a by-election to a vacant at-large seat, this act
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Proportional_Representation_Act#Section_2:_Rules_on_the_counting_of_votes_in_PR-STV_elections
would normally apply
However, this act makes it clear that this is for multiple slots, while only one is being elected.
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Consolidated_Electoral_System_Reform_Act#Section_2:_Determination_of_the_Winner
This act would otherwise apply.

My interpretation is the latter is correct. Why?
First - Section 2 of the PR act makes it clear that this only applies when more than one person is being elected. Section 3 also clearly states that the CES will need to be taken into account, placing it before the PR act.

As always I will leave this as-is for 24 hours for appeals.

In short, we are down to a run off election - which is how I interpret the acts - with the possibility of legal interpretation suggesting that at-large tie procedures be used, which would elect Nathan as the leader on the first ballot - which is what I thought before I checked to see if I was sure.

I'd appreciate any advise the RG might have on this issue, because, as with most election law, the answer is not clear.

[bgwah]

The first preference tie-breaker should be used. I suppose it's possible I'm biased () but I'm fairly confident that is the correct solution.

[homelycooking]

This being a by-election to a vacant at-large seat, this act
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Proportional_Representation_Act#Section_2:_Rules_on_the_counting_of_votes_in_PR-STV_elections
would normally apply
However, this act makes it clear that this is for multiple slots, while only one is being elected.
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Consolidated_Electoral_System_Reform_Act#Section_2:_Determination_of_the_Winner
This act would otherwise apply.

My interpretation is the latter is correct. Why?
First - Section 2 of the PR act makes it clear that this only applies when more than one person is being elected. Section 3 also clearly states that the CES will need to be taken into account, placing it before the PR act.

As always I will leave this as-is for 24 hours for appeals.

In short, we are down to a run off election - which is how I interpret the acts - with the possibility of legal interpretation suggesting that at-large tie procedures be used, which would elect Nathan as the leader on the first ballot - which is what I thought before I checked to see if I was sure.

Teddy, what in Section 2 of the PR act leads you to believe that it refers to an election for multiple seats?

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

2. The ‘quota’ (i.e. the number of votes required to be deemed elected) shall then be calculated as the whole number (disregarding any attached fraction) resulting from the following equation:
[Total Valid Poll/(Number of seats to be filled + 1)] + 1

This would mean every by-election we've ever done for any vacant at-large seat has been done incorrectly, because it's not used a quota.

The quota in this case would be 50, and Nathan would be elected on the tiebreaker.

I'm willing to recount the election with the quota (it wouldn't change anything) but it would mean accepting that all these by-elections have been done incorrectly.

I'm willing to do that though if others are?

[Sam Spade]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This, in theory, because it is, well, poorly worded, means that both Acts could apply simultaneously, but since the Consolidated Electoral System Reform Act does not mention Proportional Representation seats, a court would determine that, by omission, the Senate meant the Proportional Representation Act only applied in these situations.

As such, Section 2 of that Act would apply, pretty clearly.  I don't know where you're getting that the PR Act only applies to multiple slot elections.  It's certainly not in the statutory language.

Maybe I read this before I changed my vote.  Maybe not.  Who knows.

Let me ask the more important question though - does it change the end result?

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

Yes
The end result is either

Nathan is a Senator
or
Nathan and Bill have a run-off

[Fritz]

I think its pretty clear that Nathan wins the tie.  I'm not understanding what part of the law makes this questionable.

As to the quota, that doesn't mean all those elections were done incorrectly.  Quota just isn't relevant when we are electing one seat, and it makes no difference to the end result.

[Sam Spade]

I think its pretty clear that Nathan wins the tie.  I'm not understanding what part of the law makes this questionable.

As to the quota, that doesn't mean all those elections were done incorrectly.  Quota just isn't relevant when we are electing one seat, and it makes no difference to the end result.

That's what I thought - I'm just pointing out a statutory issue.  I will now go back into hiding, as my question has been answered.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

1. Hereinafter Class B Senators shall be elected using the system of proportional representation by means of the single transferable vote (hereinafter ‘PR-STV’).
2. For the purposes of these elections the whole of Atlasia shall be treated as a single electoral constituency.
1. After the close of polls, the ‘total valid poll’ shall be calculated, this being the total number of valid votes cast in the election.
2. The ‘quota’ (i.e. the number of votes required to be deemed elected) shall then be calculated as the whole number (disregarding any attached fraction) resulting from the following equation:
[Total Valid Poll/(Number of seats to be filled + 1)] + 1

Quota is required. It does not change anything, whatsoever, but it's still required.

If Nathan is to be made a Senator tonight, than we have to accept that all the class B by-elections should have had Quotas, which is actually where I'm leaning at this time.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

I am willing to do this, and to release a statement on behalf of the department apologizing for not using a quota in the past.

Again it is meaningless, but the law says I have to, regardless of weather there is a point to it or not.

[Fritz]

Okay Teddy, they should have had quotas.  Saying so now does not change the result of any past election.  This is a relevant question ONLY in the current situation- a tie.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

Correct on all counts, as far as I understand.

Thus I'm resetting the 24 hour clock.

Nathan is declared elected. I will certify this in 24 hours. If there are any objections to this within that period I will examine them accordingly.

[Cincinnatus]

I have no intention to challenge the result.  That is all.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Even if this goose is mostly cooked, I'm going to hold off on swearing in until Tuesday morning just to be safe.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

You can not swear in until I certify