Winter War

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Winston Disraeli implies that Finland was somehow the aggressor in the Winter War against the poor victimized Soviet Union which just happened to invade them:

You should have seen our WW2 argument on AIM. He claimed WW2 was started because of British interventionist foreign policy and accused the USSR of attacking 'poor defenceless Finland' in an attempt to conquer it.

On AIM, he claimed "The Finns and Poles were both militarist in 1939".

He also claims "it serves the Finnish right for being anti-Soviet fascist scum", despite the fact that Finland was a democracy, the first in Europe to have universal suffrage.


What do you think?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Oh yeah, here's the Wiki description for those who aren't familiar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

The Winter War (Finnish: talvisota, Swedish: vinterkriget, Russian: Зимняя война) was a military conflict between the Soviet Union and Finland. It began with a Soviet offensive on 30 November 1939—three months after the start of World War II and the Soviet invasion of Poland—and ended on 13 March 1940 with the Moscow Peace Treaty. The League of Nations deemed the attack illegal and expelled the Soviet Union on 14 December 1939.

The Soviet forces had three times as many soldiers as the Finns, thirty times as many aircraft, and a hundred times as many tanks. The Red Army, however, had been crippled by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin's Great Purge of 1937, reducing the army's morale and efficiency shortly before the outbreak of the fighting.With over 30,000 of its army officers executed or imprisoned, including most of those of the highest ranks, the Red Army in 1939 had many inexperienced senior officers. Because of these factors, and high commitment and morale in the Finnish forces, Finland was able to resist the Soviet invasion for far longer than the Soviets expected.

Hostilities ceased in March 1940 with the signing of the Moscow Peace Treaty. Finland ceded 11% of its pre-war territory and 30% of its economic assets to the Soviet Union. Soviet losses on the front were heavy, and the country's international reputation suffered. The Soviet forces did not accomplish their objective of the total conquest of Finland but did gain sufficient territory along Lake Ladoga to provide a buffer for Leningrad. The Finns, however, retained their sovereignty and improved their international reputation.

...

On 30 November, Soviet forces invaded Finland with 21 divisions, totaling some 450,000 men, and bombed Helsinki. Later the Finnish statesman J.K. Paasikivi commented that the Soviet attack without a declaration of war  violated three different non-aggression pacts: the Treaty of Tartu signed in 1920, the non-aggression pact between Finland and the Soviet Union signed in 1932 and again in 1934, and also the Charter of the League of Nations, which the Soviet Union signed in 1934. C.G.E. Mannerheim was appointed Commander-in-Chief of the Finnish Defence Forces after the Soviet attack. In further reshuffling, the Finnish government named Risto Ryti as the new prime minister and Väinö Tanner as foreign minister.

On 1 December, the Soviet Union formed a puppet government intended to rule Finland once the war was over. Called the Finnish Democratic Republic, it was headed by O.W. Kuusinen. The government was also called "The Terijoki Government", named after the village of Terijoki, the first place captured by the advancing Soviet army. The puppet regime was unsuccessful and was quietly disbanded in early 1940. From the very outset of the war, working-class Finns stood behind the legal government in Helsinki. Finnish national unity against the Soviet invasion was later called the spirit of the Winter War.

At the start of the Winter War, Finland brought up the matter of the Soviet invasion before the League of Nations. The League expelled the Soviet Union on 14 December 1939 and exhorted its members to aid Finland.

[k-onmmunist]

Okay, let me just correct a few things Libertas has said.

I never said the USSR didn't attack Finland for one.

Poland was hardly a model of democracy in 1939 - It was pretty much a dictatorship, just like Germany (well, not just like Germany, but you get my point)

As for Finland being fascist, they weren't, but they were allied with the Nazis, which is almost as bad.

[k-onmmunist]

Also, the Soviet non-aggression pacts were cancelled a few days before the war began, so they were not directly broken.

And finally, since when has Libertas supported anyone in a war? Hypocrisy much?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Okay, let me just correct a few things Libertas has said.

I never said the USSR didn't attack Finland for one.

Poland was hardly a model of democracy in 1939 - It was pretty much a dictatorship, just like Germany (well, not just like Germany, but you get my point)

As for Finland being fascist, they weren't, but they were allied with the Nazis, which is almost as bad.

Incorrect, Finland was neutral when the Soviet Union invaded them.

Finland along with the Baltic states and eastern Poland were within the Soviets' sphere of influence according to the pact to carve up Europe that Stalin signed with Hitler. The idea that any of those countries were allied with the Nazis when the Soviets attacked them is laughable.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Also, the Soviet non-aggression pacts were cancelled a few days before the war began, so they were not directly broken.

And finally, since when has Libertas supported anyone in a war? Hypocrisy much?

Uh, right, it's such hypocrisy for me to support the right of small nations to defend themselves against acts of aggression by militaristic imperialist regimes.

I think it's pretty clear:

Poland and Finland = victims
Stalin and his buddy Hitler = aggressors

[k-onmmunist]

Okay, let me just correct a few things Libertas has said.

I never said the USSR didn't attack Finland for one.

Poland was hardly a model of democracy in 1939 - It was pretty much a dictatorship, just like Germany (well, not just like Germany, but you get my point)

As for Finland being fascist, they weren't, but they were allied with the Nazis, which is almost as bad.

Incorrect, Finland was neutral when the Soviet Union invaded them.

Finland along with the Baltic states and eastern Poland were within the Soviets' sphere of influence according to the pact to carve up Europe that Stalin signed with Hitler. The idea that any of those countries were allied with the Nazis when the Soviets attacked them is laughable.

It was neutral when they invaded, but they turned to the Nazis for help when it did happen.

Also, given that the USSR didn't conquer Finland, I think we can safely say your interpretation of this is wrong. I'm not justifying either side, I simply don't think you whitewashing the Finns as saints is incorrect.

[k-onmmunist]

Also, the Soviet non-aggression pacts were cancelled a few days before the war began, so they were not directly broken.

And finally, since when has Libertas supported anyone in a war? Hypocrisy much?

Uh, right, it's such hypocrisy for me to support the right of small nations to defend themselves against acts of aggression by militaristic imperialist regimes.

I think it's pretty clear:

Poland and Finland = victims
Stalin and his buddy Hitler = aggressors

Okay so you're not a pacifist, which has gone against everything you've ever said on the subject. Thanks for that.

Poland was a victim to some extent. They didn't deserve the land they stole from the Soviets in 1920 for sure. Finland was more of a victim.

As for Stalin and Hitler being buddies, haha no. Stalin signed a pact with Hitler to buy time. He knew as well as Hitler did that the Nazis would invade eventually.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Also, the Soviet non-aggression pacts were cancelled a few days before the war began, so they were not directly broken.

And finally, since when has Libertas supported anyone in a war? Hypocrisy much?

Uh, right, it's such hypocrisy for me to support the right of small nations to defend themselves against acts of aggression by militaristic imperialist regimes.

I think it's pretty clear:

Poland and Finland = victims
Stalin and his buddy Hitler = aggressors

Okay so you're not a pacifist, which has gone against everything you've ever said on the subject. Thanks for that.

Uh, no, it doesn't. Stop lying, Winston.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And why did the Soviets deserve Polish land? I guess the Germans too deserved to take back the other half of Poland then? Or does that not count cause they're supposedly not the same ideology as you?

[k-onmmunist]

The Polish Corridor was a major cause of World War 2, and the solution arrived at at Versailles probably wasn't the best idea, to be honest. The problem is, where else do you draw the western German border? I mean, the modern border involved mass expulsions of Germans from areas that hadn't been Polish for centuries (coupled with the explusion of the Sudeten Germans in Czechia).

The land Poland took from the Soviets was not even majority Polish though. Most of the people there were White Russians, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Lithuanians etc. There was absolutely no justification for it.

[Free Palestine]

[Хahar 🤔]

As for Finland being fascist, they weren't, but they were allied with the Nazis, which is almost as bad.

...because they were attacked by the Soviet Union.

[SvenssonRS]

Finland(sane).

[Ameriplan]

Can't we all just agree that Winston Disreali is a wishy-washy windbag who would fight to the end of the earth for his fleeting beliefs that he won't have in three hours.

[Ameriplan]

Winston is a true believer.  It doesn't matter what the cause is, whether it be extreme libertarianism or communism, so long as it fills the void in his life.

Exactly point.

[Bo]

Finland, duh.

[SPC]

I wouldn't necessarily support either side, but obviously the Soviet Union was the aggressor, if that's what you mean.

[k-onmmunist]

Can't we all just agree that Winston Disreali is a wishy-washy windbag who would fight to the end of the earth for his fleeting beliefs that he won't have in three hours.

No.

We're more likely to agree that you're a troll who needs to be banned.

[Mechaman]

Man Finland is full of crazy mothafIIIas.........or the Soviet Union just sucked that bad at military strategy (before Winston goes all "they won World War II" I'm referring to efficiency ie tactic that result in a minimal loss of life).

[k-onmmunist]

Well, purging the army before a war is never a very good idea. The Ayatollah made the same mistake.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Well, purging the army before a war is never a very good idea. The Ayatollah made the same mistake.

You dare to question Stalin's judgment? You're lucky you live in an oppressive capitalist society or you might have been purged yourself...

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The land Poland took from the Soviets was not even majority Polish though. Most of the people there were White Russians, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Lithuanians etc. There was absolutely no justification for it.

Sure there was, tho it wasn't necessarily one you would agree with.  Polish nationalism in those days had in mind something akin to the recreation of the old Commonwealth, which included White Russians, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Lithuanians etc. among its peoples.  A restored Commonwealth is certainly in keeping with the romanticism that created Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia in the aftermath of World War I.