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Emsworth
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« on: March 15, 2004, 07:12:53 pm »
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I don't wish to complicate the matter further, but I have formed the following draft on the basis of Demrepdan's proposal. I did, however, make some changes: I firstly took into account all of the votes we've had so far, and I also assumed for now that supersoulty's proposal for two separate types of Senate constituencies would pass, as would any related proposals made by the gentleman from Pennsylvania. I have also left some parts undone, labeling them "[to be determined]." Finally, in several cases, one might find material such as [XXX] (within square brackets). This is to indicate where something is yet to be decided; for instance, the regional boundaries. I would ask that these omissions aforestated be forgiven.
----------------------

We the people of the United States Election Atlas Forum, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, support equality for all forum members, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States Election Atlas Forum.

Article I

Section 1

All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in the Senate of the Atlas Forum.

Section 2

There shall be five regions and five districts, each of which shall elect for a term of six months a Senator, provided that, after the first election, Senators for [XXX] shall have a term of two months, and Senators for [YYY] shall have a term of four months.

No person shall be Senator who shall not have attained thirty or more posts at the forum, does not have an avatar indicating a state within his or her region, or does not declare his or her candidacy within twenty days of the election.

The Vice President of the forum shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, save when the Senate shall be equally divided.

The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act during the absence of the Vice President.

If there shall be a vacancy in the Senate, then it shall be filled up by [to be determined].

Section 3

[Impeachment - To be determined]

Section 4

The Senate shall establish its own rules and proceedings, but no vote taken in the Senate shall be valid unless a majority of the Senators shall have cast votes.
 
The Senate may, by a vote of two-thirds, expel one of its members, but no expelled member shall be disqualified from being reelected to the Senate, or being elected or appointed to any other position.

Section 5

 The Senate may pass a bill for the purpose of making laws, or a resolution for the purpose of declaring war, a majority of the Senators voting concurring. But all such bills and resolutions shall first be submitted to the President before taking effect; and the President may either declare his or her approval or veto it. If the President approves, or if he or she neither approves nor vetoes the bill or resolution within seven days, the bill or resolution shall take effect. But if he shall veto it, the bill or resolution shall be of no effect unless the Senate shall vote, two-thirds of the Senators concurring, to override the President's veto.

Article II

Section 1

The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Atlas Forum, who shall hold office for a term of four months.

Section 2

The President and Vice President shall be chosen by the registered voters of the forum at each general election from amongst those pairs of persons who shall have consented to the joining of their names on one ticket within twenty days of the election, one of the persons being indicated as the Presidential candidate, and the other as the Vice Presidential one: Provided that in no case shall a ticket consist of two persons from the same [state/ region].

No person shall be President or Vice President who shall not have attained fifty-one or more posts at the forum, does not have an avatar indicating a state within the United States, or does not declare his or her candidacy within twenty days of the election.

The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the forum, shall be removed from
Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, Abusing Power, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.  

The President, Vice President, and all other executive officers shall be sworn in no earlier noon Eastern Time on the Friday immediately following their election or appointment, but no later than noon Eastern Time on the Sunday next ensuing.

No person shall serve as President, or as Vice President, for more than two consecutive terms. Terms lasting less than one month shall be ignored for the purpose of this clause.

The Vice President and a majority of officers of the executive departments established by law may declare to the Senate that the President is unable to perform his duties, and in such a case the Vice President shall assume office as Acting President until either he or she certifies that the President is again able to continue in office, or the President declares that he is able to continue in office and the Senate does not override the Presidentís declaration, two-thirds of the Senators concurring.

If there shall be a vacancy in the office of Vice President, the President shall, with the advice and consent of the Senate, appoint a Vice President who shall not be from the same state as him.

If there shall be a vacancy in the office of President, the Vice President shall immediately become President and shall be sworn in. But if there shall be no Vice President to take office, then the President pro tempore of the Senate shall become President, and if there shall similarly be no President pro tempore, or the President pro tempore shall not be qualified, then the officer of the executive department established earliest by law, excluding such departments whose officers shall not be qualified to become President, shall become President.

Section 4

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Armed forces of the Atlas Forum.

The President shall, with the advice and consent of the Senate, appoint judges to the Supreme Court and officers of such executive departments as shall be ordained by law.

The President shall each month give an address State of the Forum to the Senate.

Article III  (Supreme Court)

Section 1

The Judicial Power of the Atlas Forum shall be vested in the Supreme Court, which shall be consist of a Chief Justice and two Associate Justices.

Section 2

The Supreme Court may order that an unconstitutional act cease or be reversed, and may make any other ruling necessary to uphold the constitution, but they shall in no case usurp the authority of the Senate to make laws.

Article IV (Elections)

Section 1

The United States shall be divided into the following regions:

[To be determined]

The United States shall be divided into the following districts:

[To be determined]

The Senate may, by a vote of two-thirds, amend the districts such that every district includes, as nearly as practicable, an equal number of registered voters.

Each region shall elect a Governor in such a manner as its residents shall see fit.

Section 2

No person shall vote who shall not have attained eighteen posts at the forum. shall not have an avatar indicating a state of residence, or shall not have registered within ten days of the election.

Elections shall be held every second month, with general elections being held on [XXX] and midterm elections being held on [XXX].

Section 3

The President, Vice President, Senator, executive officers and Justices of the Supreme Court shall swear the following oath: I do solemnly swear [or affirm] that I will faithfully execute the office of [office name], and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the Atlas Forum, so help me Dave.

Article VI (Amendment Ratification); Bill of Rights; Other Articles

[To be determined]

« Last Edit: March 15, 2004, 07:52:30 pm by Emsworth »Logged
Demrepdan
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2004, 07:45:52 pm »
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What the hell?
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Emsworth
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2004, 07:51:24 pm »
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What the hell?
Would you care to elucidate?
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Demrepdan
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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2004, 08:26:07 pm »
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You're ignoring the leadership of the Nym administration as well as the will of the people. Long ago...people agreed to the structure of my constitution.....with a landslide victory in a poll..(mainly due to the detail and lack of lose ends) ...and it was decided by several...(including Vice President Harry)..that any re-writes of the constitution be made by myself. And ALSO...you're sticking things in there that we haven't ALL agreed upon...all changes I was going to make were those that weíve agreed upon...I wasn't going to slide anything else in. One suggestion was made in a thread a while back....that Senators must be a Junior Member (or 51 posts.) Most agreed......but we didnít get that big of a response. Also...there has been no opposition PUBLICLY of my rules for impeachment.....however, those rules have changed now that the House is gone. I have stated my opinion in another thread.....asking what people thought of a public poll being administered to determine if the person is impeached....and then a 2/3 vote in the Senate for removal from office. When I suggested that....I donít think I had ANYONE disagree...(maybe so.)...but still...thatís the way I thought we would have it due to the response of the people. Iíve been following peopleís requests closely.....evidently you have not (or you chose not to) because you did not include any clause in your draft as such.

And I've noticed for quite some time....the effort that has been brought on to slow down the writing of the Constitution...many people wanting several small but vital and irrelevant changes made. In essence, EVERYONE wants to write their own constitution. Which I suppose is fine......but we're gonna be here a LONG. time...

Most of this heavy opposition comes from....dare I say....the Progressives. They want to claim they are the Constitutional Party and the party that started work on the constitution first.....but it was I...(along with several others) who LONG ago..when we first started the Fantasy Elections....said that we should have rules set forth to determine how to handle the positions and elections. I suggested a Constitution and my idea was knocked down. So I let it go.....then later dunn comes along...and he suggest a Constitution as well....and I think.."finally....I have someone who wants order the way I do"....so we begin to start to movement for the Constitution. And ever since then it has become apparent that the Progressives want to claim all responsibility for coming up with the Constitution...that is not true, and with their ďidealismĒ should come total control of formation of the Constitution. I myself ALSO do not claim all responsibility for the forming of the Constitution....and I will denounce any claim that says so....and I also do NOT want total control of the formation of the Constitution....Iím listening to the majority of the people and how they want it.
†††††††††††††††††††††
It's not just the Progressive's who have opposed nearly everything revolving around the current draft of the Constitution....there are others. And if you want to state you opinions on how the Constitution should be...that's fine...but when you go against the leadership of the Forum....a request bestowed upon me by Vice President Harry....and also with the support of the President himself......and try to complicate this process...and make it last longer than it should....then I don't know.

All I know is this is horribly frustrating......

I was intending on re-writing the sections we have all agreed upon and putting the second draft on my website for all to see by Tuesday (as requested by the Vice President). But if anyone wishes for me to step down from the creation of the Constitution......please let me know. With an executive order from either Nym or Harry.....I shall step aside and throw the project into other hands immediately....if it will get a Constitution formed quickly and make everyone happy.


« Last Edit: March 15, 2004, 08:30:15 pm by Forum Affairs Secretary Demrepdan »Logged

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2004, 08:30:26 pm »
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SIX MONTH TERMS?!?!

WTF!!!!!!!!!

This was NOT agreed to, Emsworth.

I'm yet to read past that acticle, and until this is amended, I don't plan on doing to.
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2004, 08:33:02 pm »
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SIX MONTH TERMS?!?!

WTF!!!!!!!!!

This was NOT agreed to, Emsworth.

I'm yet to read past that acticle, and until this is amended, I don't plan on doing to.

Thank you for pointing that out, hughento......most people agreed (by majority) to 4 month Senate terms as well as 4 month President terms. Evidently Emsworth believes otherwise....
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2004, 08:40:39 pm »
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I say we scrap whatever this is, and stick to the original plan we have been moving on.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2004, 08:51:57 pm »
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Thank you for pointing that out, hughento......most people agreed (by majority) to 4 month Senate terms as well as 4 month President terms. Evidently Emsworth believes otherwise....
Perhaps I should reinforce my statement that the constitution above works under the assumption that supersoulty's plans will pass. If they don't, I would change the constitution. (The President, if I may point out, and his administration, endorsed supersoulty's proposal, which included 6-month terms.)

Quote
You're ignoring the leadership of the Nym administration as well as the will of the people.
I would respectfully suggest, not intending to give offense, that the Nym administration has failed to offer too much leadership in this matter. Also, I would hope that I would be free to offer my own views without being accused of usurping the authority of the President: indeed, why not have Nym make the constitution on his own if the proposals of others are to be ignored.

Quote
Long ago...people agreed to the structure of my constitution.....with a landslide victory in a poll..(mainly due to the detail and lack of lose ends) ...and it was decided by several...(including Vice President Harry)..that any re-writes of the constitution be made by myself.
Then treat this as a different draft. I actually posted a message in a separate thread, in which I said, "Might I be permitted to propose a re-worded draft of the present Constitution?" Then, there was no objection suggesting that the authority to propose changes lay only in the hands of the honorable Secretary. So I naturally presumed that I could continue.

Quote
And ALSO...you're sticking things in there that we haven't ALL agreed upon...all changes I was going to make were those that weíve agreed upon...I wasn't going to slide anything else in.
These are on a temporary basis. It was your own Vice President who said that the proposal had to be up no later than 3 Eastern tomorrow. This is before any of the votes conclude, so I have no choice. I do have an alternate version, which would exclude supersoulty's changes, but as currently, his proposals are winning, I've (for the time being) written them in to the constitution: it is not a stagnant draft, but one that will change with the votes.

Quote
Iíve been following peopleís requests closely.....evidently you have not (or you chose not to) because you did not include any clause in your draft as such.
Perhaps I should describe the above as a "Work in Progress," the publication of which was hastened by your own Vice President.

Quote
And I've noticed for quite some time....the effort that has been brought on to slow down the writing of the Constitution...many people wanting several small but vital and irrelevant changes made.
Vital and irrelevant? A rather oxymoronic pair, I would think... In any event, some changes are absolutely necessary. The phrasing of the former constitution was rather - for lack of a better term - unforunate (not that I mean to insult the Forum Affairs Secretary), as several redundancies and other problems presented themselves.

Quote
In essence, EVERYONE wants to write their own constitution.
I've only counted three.

Quote
They want to claim they are the Constitutional Party and the party that started work on the constitution first.....but it was I...(along with several others) who LONG ago..when we first started the Fantasy Elections....said that we should have rules set forth to determine how to handle the positions and elections.
Then I commend you for it.

Quote
And if you want to state you opinions on how the Constitution should be...that's fine...but when you go against the leadership of the Forum....a request bestowed upon me by Vice President Harry....and also with the support of the President himself......and try to complicate this process...and make it last longer than it should....then I don't know.
If you are responsible for framing this constitution, I would suggest that all votes be abandoned, and you put forth a constitution that is voted up or down.

Quote
All I know is this is horribly frustrating......
I can only offer my profound apologia, as well as an indication that the feeling is mutual.

Quote
I shall step aside and throw the project into other hands immediately....if it will get a Constitution formed quickly and make everyone happy.
I hardly think that a step so drastic is necessary.

Quote
I say we scrap whatever this is...
Perhaps I will be permitted by the Democrats to explain what this is. It is an attempt to revise the proposal of Demrepdan, eliminating redundancies and other undesirable elements. However, thanks to the Vice President's deadline, I have been forced to put this up before the conclusion of the vote on supersoulty's plan. Now, I find it very interesting that I am attacked for including supersoulty's plan. The President said, "I endorse Supersoulty's plan." If I did not include the plan, then would not the Forum Affairs Secretary have accused me of undermining the President's authority?

Now, I find it necessary to offer a recapitulation of my points. Firstly, the constitution proposed is not a final draft; I would have waited until the votes were complete before offering it - therefore, it is only a work that is currently unfinished. The Vice President hastned the proceedings, and the dutiful citizen that I am, I hardly sought to undermine him by offering more drafts after the deadline he has set. Also, when I earlier asked if I would be permitted to post this constitution, no objection was raised: but after it has been put, certain elements of the Democratic Party seem to offer tremendous objections to it. And finally, I do not wish to undermine the Administration or the authority delegated to the Forum Affairs Secretary, but do suggest that my views be considered, and not be trampled upon under the guise of attempting to uphold the Administration.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2004, 08:57:09 pm by Emsworth »Logged
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2004, 09:06:53 pm »
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Long ago...people agreed to the structure of my constitution.....with a landslide victory in a poll..(mainly due to the detail and lack of lose ends) ...and it was decided by several...(including Vice President Harry)..that any re-writes of the constitution be made by myself.

Booooo!  Hisssss!  Boooooooooooo!  Allow people to make proposals!  This isn't an official thing!  It's proposal!

BOOOOOOOOOO!

((Merely expressing my views))
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2004, 09:52:24 pm »
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This is only a rewording of Demrepdan's constiution, taking into account supersoulty's plan (endorsed by the Administration) and the votes that have taken place since the publication of the original. Why, then, should a proposal for rewording be so controversial?
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2004, 10:30:49 pm »
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Maybe I kinda overacted.....I realize that Emsworth was just trying to help speed along the constitution....but you gotta take it from my perspective....put yourself in my shoes....(you presented your constitution after working on it for a week around the same time the Progressives presented theirs....which was the opprotunity for ALL people to present their version of the Constitution which has now passed........by popular vote most people agree to go along with your constitution due to itís detail on the issues and lack of legal loopholes....you are fully aware that others want to lend their ideas......and you are VERY WILLING to work with them to stick their ideas in the constitution......but then....someone comes around and re-writes the constitution without you asking him to help you re-write it......) How would you feel? I felt like Emsworth was essentially saying I'm inept and INCAPABLE of making these changes myself...thus it must be made by someone who can.... and I kinda took that as an insult....but like I said...I overacted.....and I now realize that he was only trying to help......so I apologize.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2004, 10:32:21 pm by Forum Affairs Secretary Demrepdan »Logged

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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2004, 04:45:36 am »
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Maybe I kinda overacted.....I realize that Emsworth was just trying to help speed along the constitution....but you gotta take it from my perspective....put yourself in my shoes....(you presented your constitution after working on it for a week around the same time the Progressives presented theirs....which was the opprotunity for ALL people to present their version of the Constitution which has now passed........by popular vote most people agree to go along with your constitution due to it’s detail on the issues and lack of legal loopholes....you are fully aware that others want to lend their ideas......and you are VERY WILLING to work with them to stick their ideas in the constitution......but then....someone comes around and re-writes the constitution without you asking him to help you re-write it......) How would you feel? I felt like Emsworth was essentially saying I'm inept and INCAPABLE of making these changes myself...thus it must be made by someone who can.... and I kinda took that as an insult....but like I said...I overacted.....and I now realize that he was only trying to help......so I apologize.
you did
and dan's was just a draft (a good one) just like thr progressive's one (which was first and several clauses are just the same).

and dan, how can a sec work for a tv station?
Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2004, 06:35:58 am »
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I felt like Emsworth was essentially saying I'm inept and INCAPABLE of making these changes myself...thus it must be made by someone who can.... and I kinda took that as an insult
Well, it was most certainly not my intention. I had actually thought that you approved, as you had said in a previous message (here), "If you have any other suggestions for me on how to reword the Constitution to eliminate redundancies ... please let me know ... Itís fine if you wish to give suggestions on the rewording...but I hope you donít change the overall message of the Constitution in the process." But, I did not wish to convey upon you any impression of ineptness or other undesirable quality, and I therefore do offer my humble apologia and beg your forgiveness.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2004, 06:41:53 am by Emsworth »Logged
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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2004, 06:44:22 am »
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Because of the vociferous opposition to this draft, and also due to the impression it appears to convey, I hereby withdraw it, but I hope that the relevant authorities would consider its wording when revising their own drafts.
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2004, 09:26:16 pm »
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I felt like Emsworth was essentially saying I'm inept and INCAPABLE of making these changes myself...thus it must be made by someone who can.... and I kinda took that as an insult
Well, it was most certainly not my intention. I had actually thought that you approved, as you had said in a previous message (here), "If you have any other suggestions for me on how to reword the Constitution to eliminate redundancies ... please let me know ... Itís fine if you wish to give suggestions on the rewording...but I hope you donít change the overall message of the Constitution in the process." But, I did not wish to convey upon you any impression of ineptness or other undesirable quality, and I therefore do offer my humble apologia and beg your forgiveness.

That's right I did say that....and you violated my request by changing the terms to 6 months......
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2004, 06:36:51 am »
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That's right I did say that....and you violated my request by changing the terms to 6 months......
I beg to disagree. I included all elements of supersoulty's plan, which you yourself have endorsed! The President's endorsement was forthcoming, as was that of the rest of the administration; the measure seemed likely to pass - so it was included. This six-month term is not something I have concocted myself: it is a part of supersoulty's plan, which your own administration has agreed to.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2004, 06:37:15 am by Emsworth »Logged
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2004, 08:57:51 pm »
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That's right I did say that....and you violated my request by changing the terms to 6 months......
I beg to disagree. I included all elements of supersoulty's plan, which you yourself have endorsed! The President's endorsement was forthcoming, as was that of the rest of the administration; the measure seemed likely to pass - so it was included. This six-month term is not something I have concocted myself: it is a part of supersoulty's plan, which your own administration has agreed to.

I agreed to Supersoulty's map...and arrangement of the Regions....nothing more....nothing less.....

I would like to announce that I will soon post a revised copy of the constitution...with many of your changes.....(except the 6 month term rule)
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2004, 09:45:52 pm »
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you did
and dan's was just a draft (a good one) just like thr progressive's one (which was first and several clauses are just the same).


I hope you aren't implying that I stole from the Progressive's Constitution. I took a week writing mine...and was not aware of the Progressive's Constitution until the very day I posted mine for Forum members to see.

I think the reason my Constitution was so similar to the Progressive's...was because we both borrowed ideas from the U.S. Constitution. Smiley  
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2004, 09:48:18 pm »
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Oh man, the progressives are stating to make accusations now --- I don't know, if I were those party's voters I'd switch over to the Democrats. Fast.
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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2004, 09:59:54 pm »
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Oh man, the progressives are stating to make accusations now --- I don't know, if I were those party's voters I'd switch over to the Democrats. Fast.
As a Progressive, who would naturally be shocked by such remarks, I think that I can only confirm the veracity of three words in your statement: "I don't know."
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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2004, 04:19:18 am »
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you did
and dan's was just a draft (a good one) just like thr progressive's one (which was first and several clauses are just the same).


I hope you aren't implying that I stole from the Progressive's Constitution. I took a week writing mine...and was not aware of the Progressive's Constitution until the very day I posted mine for Forum members to see.

I think the reason my Constitution was so similar to the Progressive's...was because we both borrowed ideas from the U.S. Constitution. Smiley  
o/c not. you made a good work (me too...) and we
did borrowed some stuff....
Wink
All we are saying is that we did our job' and we were the one pushing toward constitution and having the idea in the first place (hell we were the constitutional party)
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