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|-+  General Politics
| |-+  Political Debate (Moderator: Beet)
| | |-+  Opinion of Obamacare
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Poll
Question: Do you support Obamacare?
I oppose it from the left.   -23 (25%)
I oppose it from the right.   -25 (27.2%)
I oppose it from the center (i.e. I would support Wyden-Bennett or similar)   -2 (2.2%)
I would prefer something else, but support it.   -38 (41.3%)
I wholeheartedly support it.   -4 (4.3%)
Show Pie Chart
Total Voters: 92

Author Topic: Opinion of Obamacare  (Read 5093 times)
perdedor
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« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2012, 09:17:04 pm »
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I would prefer something else (an American NHS), but support it.

This. The individual mandate is troubling, but without Obamacare I would currently not have insurance (on my parents). Furthermore, there's long been a need to ban gender discrimination in health insurance nationwide and I'm glad that it's a part of Obamacare.
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morgieb
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« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2012, 10:32:15 pm »
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There should be something better, but something > nothing.
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Lerom
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« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2012, 06:02:53 pm »
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I support it from a practical perspective, less so from an ideological.

When you have to grapple with all the lobbies involved, I think this is a decent outcome. It is flawed, but few things that are possible to vote into law in the U.S. are.
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Yelnoc
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« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2012, 06:34:19 pm »
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I oppose it from the Libertarian realm (I voted from the right, because I tend to agree with the right on this issue.)
Survival of the wealthiest?
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Goodbye
k-onmmunist
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« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2012, 06:41:04 pm »
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Oppose from the left.
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FBF
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« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2012, 07:09:50 pm »
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Support, though it's not what I wanted.
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oakvale
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« Reply #56 on: March 30, 2012, 07:47:57 pm »
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Support. Certainly not perfect (but neither was, say, Social Security in its original form) by any means, but a huge improvement over the barbaric status quo.
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Seriously, go die in a ditch, anti-semitic scumbag.
greenforest32
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« Reply #57 on: March 30, 2012, 07:48:54 pm »
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It's no single-payer, but it's better than the status quo. Still, it should have:

* had a public option
* repealed the ban on Medicare's ability to negotiate Rx prices (love that fiscally responsible corporate giveaway)
* repealed the health insurance industry's anti-trust exemption

So I guess option 4
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Ghost_white
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« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2012, 07:59:09 pm »
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I don't support Obamacare, I do want a universal healthcare system like the vast majority of Americans. Not sure where that puts me other than "normal."
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That has got to be one of the most retarded proposals I have read on this forum.

Don't worry, I'm sure more will crop up shortly.
R2D2
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« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2012, 09:51:26 pm »
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I oppose it from the Libertarian realm (I voted from the right, because I tend to agree with the right on this issue.)

Survival of the wealthiest?

Survival of the ones who don't feel like they need to depend on a "higher power" to take care of them and essentially hold their hand from cradle to grave.
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Ghost_white
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« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2012, 09:59:40 pm »
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I'm sure all the people that lost their jobs and can't pay for their medical treatment anymore or have zero access to insurance even if they wanted to pay for it will appreciate your principled, Randian stance at the ripe age of 16.
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That has got to be one of the most retarded proposals I have read on this forum.

Don't worry, I'm sure more will crop up shortly.
oakvale
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« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2012, 10:27:54 pm »
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I oppose it from the Libertarian realm (I voted from the right, because I tend to agree with the right on this issue.)

Survival of the wealthiest?

Survival of the ones who don't feel like they need to depend on a "higher power" to take care of them and essentially hold their hand from cradle to grave.

So, stripping away the rhetoric, yes, survival of the wealthiest?
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Seriously, go die in a ditch, anti-semitic scumbag.
greenforest32
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« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2012, 10:39:49 pm »
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I oppose it from the Libertarian realm (I voted from the right, because I tend to agree with the right on this issue.)

Survival of the wealthiest?

Survival of the ones who don't feel like they need to depend on a "higher power" to take care of them and essentially hold their hand from cradle to grave.

So, stripping away the rhetoric, yes, survival of the wealthiest?

People are commodities and once commodities become unprofitable they are discarded by the owners. Have to keep up that return on investment
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« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2012, 10:55:00 am »
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It's not surprising I've yet to hear an actual argument from conservatives/libertarians in favor of that position and instead nothing but idiotic rhetoric (like the nonsense above)
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R2D2
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« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2012, 01:09:24 pm »
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I'm sure all the people that lost their jobs and can't pay for their medical treatment anymore or have zero access to insurance even if they wanted to pay for it will appreciate your principled, Randian stance at the ripe age of 16.

And I'm sure they'd appreciate the lottery system-based healthcare overhaul that you're proposing that has produced cases in which patients are told to wait months for anything from routine check ups to life-altering procedures. I'm also sure they'd appreciate the vast expansion of Government that comes along with it because, you know, free healthcare comes with a price.
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R2D2
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« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2012, 01:12:24 pm »
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It's not surprising I've yet to hear an actual argument from conservatives/libertarians in favor of that position and instead nothing but idiotic rhetoric (like the nonsense above)

There's definitely an argument that has been and is being made, you just don't want to hear it because you prefer not to hear it. You think you're right and that's it. Childish of you, but what would I know about such behaviour?
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a real human being
Ghost_white
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« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2012, 05:59:42 pm »
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I'm sure all the people that lost their jobs and can't pay for their medical treatment anymore or have zero access to insurance even if they wanted to pay for it will appreciate your principled, Randian stance at the ripe age of 16.

And I'm sure they'd appreciate the lottery system-based healthcare overhaul that you're proposing that has produced cases in which patients are told to wait months for anything from routine check ups to life-altering procedures. I'm also sure they'd appreciate the vast expansion of Government that comes along with it because, you know, free healthcare comes with a price.

I'm sure waiting is preferable to dying or not being able to say, afford medication or cancer treatments, yes. Not that anyone that's bothered to study the subject would find this draconian rationing you're talking about. In fact we have quite long wait lists in our country compared to a lot of industrialized societies. And the US subsidizes something like >60% of its healthcare market anyway while spending more per capita than any other country. The reality is that a universal healthcare system would be forced to either allocate resources better or go bankrupt, like the present system is. I do not deny that, where have I ever said otherwise?

But that's not even why I replied that way, I just can't stand darwinian "bootstraps" rhetoric on this issue. I can understand the "non-aggression principle" line of morality even if I don't agree with it, but not that. That just makes me sick, to be quite honest.
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That has got to be one of the most retarded proposals I have read on this forum.

Don't worry, I'm sure more will crop up shortly.
R2D2
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« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2012, 06:21:30 pm »
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But I'm sure if they waited long enough, they would die, no? I'll admit that I do reserve some belief that the Government may be able to provide healthcare, but I can't agree with the principle of letting the modern United States Government do it. It is my firm belief that when Government gets involved, sh*t gets f**ked up (see handling of the auto companies, banks, wars, etc.) So while I believe that the idea of universal healthcare is noble and reasonably practical idea, I cannot trust the modern Government to do it. Maybe we could see reform in which the Government only provides care to those who can't afford it, but still allow some aspect of a free market-based system? All in all, I believe we must keep the free market in play in this area. It is crucial. I support the idea of universal healthcare, but I cannot support its implementation into the modern United States.
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oakvale
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« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2012, 06:50:09 pm »
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It is my firm belief that when Government gets involved, sh*t gets f**ked up (see handling of the auto companies

If you'll excuse me picking out a single aspect of your post, I feel I should point out that auto bailout's been rather successful.
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Seriously, go die in a ditch, anti-semitic scumbag.
R2D2
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« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2012, 07:59:56 pm »
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It is my firm belief that when Government gets involved, sh*t gets f**ked up (see handling of the auto companies

If you'll excuse me picking out a single aspect of your post, I feel I should point out that auto bailout's been rather successful.

Moderately successful, but they haven't been fully paid back yet. There's still about 30-40 billion dollars to be paid back. I believe corporate welfare is not how you fix the economy and create a better job environment. Times of hardship are times that industry is tested. The auto companies could have avoided near-bankruptcy if they had better managed their money, but instead they needed help of the Government (which does not exist to keep fiscally irresponsible corporations afloat, by nature) just so they didn't go broke.
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Emperor Scott
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« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2012, 11:24:14 pm »
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But I'm sure if they waited long enough, they would die, no? I'll admit that I do reserve some belief that the Government may be able to provide healthcare, but I can't agree with the principle of letting the modern United States Government do it. It is my firm belief that when Government gets involved, sh*t gets f**ked up (see handling of the auto companies, banks, wars, etc.) So while I believe that the idea of universal healthcare is noble and reasonably practical idea, I cannot trust the modern Government to do it. Maybe we could see reform in which the Government only provides care to those who can't afford it, but still allow some aspect of a free market-based system? All in all, I believe we must keep the free market in play in this area. It is crucial. I support the idea of universal healthcare, but I cannot support its implementation into the modern United States.

In Canada, you are only put on a list if your operation is non-essential.  If your condition is life-threatening or emergency, you're given treatment right then and there.  It's all case-by-case.  My best friend is moving to the US from Canada someday, and she dreads what living under our healthcare system is going to be like for her compared to what she has now.  And personally, I don't think "They screw everything else up" is a very strong argument against any government action, in general.  We'd definitely be worse off if we simply didn't have government.

Also, remember that Obamacare is not NHC.  It forces you to choose a private insurance company and live with the costs.  Part of the reason why the bill sucks is because it, if anything, benefits the private insurance companies.
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Miles
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« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2012, 04:51:54 am »
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I'd prefer a Medicare-for-all system.

Looking back, I probably would have voted against the bill, but I wouldn't vote with the GOP to repeal it.
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Scottish Robb Stark
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« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2012, 05:13:02 am »
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It is a fact that public healthcare systems work better than private ones. Just compare the US to any other developed country.
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

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« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2012, 06:55:02 am »
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It is a fact that public healthcare systems work better than private ones. Just compare the US to any other developed country.

Depends how you look at it. From a public policy and indeed moral perspective, having some strong public element is a very good idea.

The American right-wing, however, doesn't seem to interested in ensuring universal access.
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Scottish Robb Stark
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« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2012, 07:40:33 am »
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It is a fact that public healthcare systems work better than private ones. Just compare the US to any other developed country.

Depends how you look at it. From a public policy and indeed moral perspective, having some strong public element is a very good idea.

The American right-wing, however, doesn't seem to interested in ensuring universal access.

I want to believe that most American right-wingers don't actually think poor people shouldn't get any health coverage. Otherwise I'll have to conclude that they are horrible people in the proper sense of the word.
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Robb of the House Stark, First of his Name, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North



Quote from: IRC
22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

Peppino, from the movie Baaria
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