Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 30, 2015, 07:11:00 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Election 2016 predictions are now open!.

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  Political Debate
| | |-+  Book Reviews and Discussion (Moderator: Beet)
| | | |-+  The Fountainhead & Atlas Shrugged
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Print
Author Topic: The Fountainhead & Atlas Shrugged  (Read 6498 times)
Senator Polnut
polnut
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15674
Australia


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2011, 08:18:22 am »
Ignore

One thing that seems pretty clear... she really didn't like women did she?
Logged


Dogma is a comfortable thing, it saves you from thought - Sir Robert Menzies
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27311


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2011, 12:36:20 pm »
Ignore

One thing that seems pretty clear... she really didn't like women did she?


Perhaps she just didn't like the characteristics traditionally associated with women by people like you, you male chauvinist.

Wink 
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
Senator Polnut
polnut
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15674
Australia


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2011, 11:12:47 pm »
Ignore

One thing that seems pretty clear... she really didn't like women did she?


Perhaps she just didn't like the characteristics traditionally associated with women by people like you, you male chauvinist.

Wink 

Ah yes! That must be it Wink
Logged


Dogma is a comfortable thing, it saves you from thought - Sir Robert Menzies
Scott
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18517
United States
View Profile
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2012, 04:05:04 pm »
Ignore

Just ordered a copy of Atlas Shrugged.  I don't agree with most aspects of Rand's philosophy, but Anthem enticed me... even though that book definitely exaggerates collectivism.
Logged


Gabriel Cáceres

"He who feeds you, controls you." -Thomas Sankara
ChairmanSanchez
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18939
United States


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2012, 09:12:00 pm »
Ignore

Bump

I too am reading Atlas Shrugged. It is, simply put, challenging. It is 1,000 pages (not too much of a challenge, I just read Nixonland) and is very (almost too) descriptive. Rand’s philosophy is something I only half agree with. Her defense of the common man and his capacity to well in society is something I have always believed in and agree with. But the attacks on religion really bugged me. Rands philosophy states (a description was in the back of the book) that “facts are facts, A is A”. If one believes in God, then one should look at Gods existence as “fact” and “reason”. Rand also glorifies the common sociopath. I like the book, and I like the respect she held for the common man, but all in all, I find it was poorly written.

I just watched these videos today, and I thought they gave a good insight into Rand’s views and personality.




Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzGFytGBDN8
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUwTHn-9hhU&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N4KbLbGYgk&feature=related
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q7cje1I3VM&feature=related
Part 5:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfqq4VKh1xM&list=UUNTrCzThyx2lV9B0KuM4RBg&index=36&feature=plcp
Logged

A Hybrid of Pat Buchanan and Bob Dylan.
Debbie Wasserman Schultz stole my car, embezzled my life savings, killed my parents, and raped my dog. Lois Frankel was the getaway driver.

politicus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8978
Denmark


View Profile
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2012, 04:36:15 pm »
Ignore

It is so incredibly boring!
Logged

angus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15719
Political Matrix
E: 1.53, S: -7.61

View Profile
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 10:22:02 am »
Ignore

I read Atlas Shrugged about ten years ago.  I found it to be slow, at first, but about halfway through it gets more interesting.  I suppose it's a bit like the movies "Malcolm X" and "Titanic" in the sense that it's a little too long, but not a bad read.

The Fountainhead was much better, in my opinion.  It's also very long, but it has less fluff.  It's good for the non-conformist in you.  At first glance, it is a story of one man and his struggles as an architect against a successful rival, but the book addresses deeper issues.  If you only read one of these two books, let it be Fountainhead.
Logged
Vosem
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6371
United States


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2012, 05:09:18 pm »
Ignore

I've never read anything by Ayn Rand myself, though some of my family members like her work (that said, most of my family members are batsh**t insane). A friend of mine read Atlas Shrugged a few years ago at the age of 12 (end of 6th grade) and heavily recommended it.
Logged

They should ban Russians from driving. Russians all drive like deranged lunatics who belong in a mental asylum to begin with.
Insula Dei
belgiansocialist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4371
Belgium


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2012, 05:37:19 pm »
Ignore

When I was 12 I at least realized that the junk I was reading fell under the 'Fantasy' label.
Logged
Burke
Newbie
*
Posts: 14
United Kingdom


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: -2.78


View Profile
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2012, 04:33:00 pm »
Ignore

My copy of Atlas Shrugged has worked pretty well as a doorstop.
Logged

This Burke intervention was brought to you by The National Trust. Time well spent.

Competition paired with deference leads to progress.
ChairmanSanchez
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18939
United States


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2012, 08:08:56 pm »
Ignore

Atlas Shrugged was a massive book in size, depth, and detail. It had way too many subplots, way too much detail, and as mentioned, had only two characters in multiple forms. But, for all her kinks in Atlas Shrugged, she still is a decent writer. Certainly not the best ever, but if you read Anthem and We the Living you will quickly find that her writing style was not as bad as it was in Atlas Shrugged.

If you are getting into Rand, I suggest you first read Anthem, and then We the Living. Anthem gives you a basic introduction to Objectivism. We the Living gives you background on why she thought the way she thought.

I agreed overall with Rand’s views on the divide between capitalists and the “looters.” But Rand’s views on religion are the opposite of what I think as a Christian. As a Paleoconservative, I believe that church/private welfare or charity programs are very beneficial to society and should be encouraged. But I don’t believe that my tax dollars should pay for welfare that I will never get. Rand’s opposition is much more sinister. Rand believed that it was belittling for a man to help another man because it did not benefit him. When pressed about this, Rand once said “I believe in charity and assistance. If my husband wants me to go get some milk at the store, I will do it. Why? Because it is in my self interest to keep his love.” If my mom, brother, or grandma asked me to go get some milk, I would do it whether it benefited me or not. As far as I know, love is supposed to be as close to unconditional as possible. Atlas Shrugged seems kind of contradictory when Dagny Taggart buys the homeless man dinner. Wasn’t that charity? You finally think something good is happening, when bam, you realize Dagny’s goal was to find out about an old factory. Once again, selfishness prevails.

Rand’s objection to Christianity was the most powerful argument for atheism I have ever read, but it had no effect on my spirituality whatsoever. Rand basically said that believing in a God would make you subhuman-a slave to a master. But, through Jesus dying for me, I am freed, and eternally in debt to him. I am pretty sure Rand would agree with me that you have to pay what you owe. How do Christians pay for the unpayable debt we have to Jesus? We love one another, as he loved us. Furthermore, Rand preached ration or reason as the best way for man to find answers. Ration tells me that human kind developing on our own is impossible, and that evolution is only half true. Others will disagree, and say that evolution is rationalized. That’s fine. It’s just a common disagreement, but at the end of the day, reason is seen through the eyes of the beholder.

Overall, Rand was a great writer, a decent (but misguided) philosopher, and a literary icon. While I don’t know what her personality was like, judging by her childhood and life in Russia, she was a very bitter, angry women who had a lot of hate. Christianity would of solved her problems, but she was very principled and stubborn, so she would never have excepted it. Her views on gender roles, charity, and “selfishness” were alright in theory, but awful in practice. It is not a bad thing to condemn the government for having social programs, but too condemn man himself? That is not Libertarianism at all. Its just the opposite in fact. Atlas Shrugged is a 7/10 in my opinion.
Logged

A Hybrid of Pat Buchanan and Bob Dylan.
Debbie Wasserman Schultz stole my car, embezzled my life savings, killed my parents, and raped my dog. Lois Frankel was the getaway driver.

Sibboleth
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 58855
United Kingdom


View Profile WWW
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2012, 07:52:05 pm »
Ignore

Anyone that thinks that she was a good writer needs to be sent to a re-education gulag immediately for some intensive brainwashing.
Logged

"Whatsoever Aristotle may have thought of this, I do not care"

William of Occam
Zen Lunatic
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1164


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2015, 08:03:14 pm »
Ignore

I think that the problem with Ayn Rand's books is that she's pushing an agenda so hard that it gets in the way of character development and her ideology becomes more important then telling a story and having multidimensional characters. That's not unique to her, it's also true for a lot of agenda driven fiction, "How The Steal Was Tempered" is another good example as are a lot of Christian apologetics like the "Left Behind" books and nazi garbage like the "Turner Diaries" which I skimmed at one point, couldn't stomach much of though.
Logged
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27311


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2015, 09:12:47 am »
Ignore

Her notion of objectivism doesn't hold very well philosophically at all. At its core moral egoism doesn't really make sense. And I mean that not in a moralizing way but on pure logical grounds.
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
Mopsus
MOPolitico
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1267
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.74, S: -5.97

View Profile
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2015, 10:45:14 am »
Ignore

At its core moral egoism doesn't really make sense. And I mean that not in a moralizing way but on pure logical grounds.

Could you expand on this?
Logged

"Wouldn't a man be mad if he constantly had before his mind's eye the map of Hungary?"
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 27311


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2015, 01:48:30 pm »
Ignore

At its core moral egoism doesn't really make sense. And I mean that not in a moralizing way but on pure logical grounds.

Could you expand on this?

Essentially, you can say that people ought to keep their own money even if they want to give it away. But that is pretty dumb. Alternatively you can say that people should just do what they actually do (since people sort of by definition do what they want) but that isn't a prescriptive moral theory. Rand sort of goes back and forth between the two in Atlas Shrugged. You can perhaps argue that people are brainwashed and that this should override what they think they want, but such a line would be the same kind of moralizing Rand is criticizing.
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
King
intermoderate
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28972
United States


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2015, 03:48:00 pm »
Ignore

I think the worst part about children being continuously born is that there will always be a fresh new mind interested in discussing The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

It is truly the greatest flaw of God's creation.
Logged

Behead All Those Who Insult Hillary
Mopsus
MOPolitico
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1267
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.74, S: -5.97

View Profile
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2015, 04:47:10 pm »
Ignore

At its core moral egoism doesn't really make sense. And I mean that not in a moralizing way but on pure logical grounds.

Could you expand on this?

Essentially, you can say that people ought to keep their own money even if they want to give it away. But that is pretty dumb.

Yes, nor does it really sound like moral egoism.

Quote
Alternatively you can say that people should just do what they actually do (since people sort of by definition do what they want) but that isn't a prescriptive moral theory. Rand sort of goes back and forth between the two in Atlas Shrugged. You can perhaps argue that people are brainwashed and that this should override what they think they want, but such a line would be the same kind of moralizing Rand is criticizing.

Max Stirner wrote that people always do what's in their interest, but because they often do so without admitting to themselves that that's why they do it (for example, by saying that they donate to charity because it's "the right thing to do", rather than because donating to charity makes them happy, and being happy is in their interest), people's thoughts and actions are confused and contradictory. Those who recognize that self-interest is the be-all and end-all of life, and actually think and act accordingly, are called "voluntary egoists", while everyone else is called an "involuntary egoist".
Logged

"Wouldn't a man be mad if he constantly had before his mind's eye the map of Hungary?"
Ebsy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1755
United States


P P
View Profile
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2015, 03:49:39 am »
Ignore

I read Atlas Shrugged when I was 15, and it turned me into a die hard partisan Democrat.
Logged
Mynheer Peeperkorn
Peeperkorn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1735
Uruguay


Political Matrix
E: 2.58, S: -8.35

View Profile
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2015, 10:45:13 pm »
Ignore

Well, they are books completely unknown in the rest of the world. That has to mean something (and something not precisely good).
Logged

Pages: 1 [2] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines