A comparison between the US and Germany (as well as Europe in general)
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  A comparison between the US and Germany (as well as Europe in general)
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Author Topic: A comparison between the US and Germany (as well as Europe in general)  (Read 2800 times)
Sbane
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« on: September 05, 2010, 02:01:06 AM »
« edited: September 05, 2010, 02:04:20 AM by sbane »

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/08/25/german_usa_working_life_ext2010

This is an interview of the author of "Were You Born on the Wrong Continent?: How the European Model Can Help You Get a Life", Thomas Geoghegan. I found it to be quite interesting.

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Certainly things like free higher education, that actually leads to lower GDP, improves the livelihood of normal people. But god forbid students leave college without $50,000 in debt. That would be Communism!!!!!!!1
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 02:56:08 PM »

And yet there are people (some of whom post on this very forum!) that would argue that Americans are more free or that America is a better country than Germany (or nearly anywhere else in Western or even, these days, Central and parts of Eastern Europe)!
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Vepres
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 03:20:24 PM »

Consider the source...
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 03:22:28 PM »


Oh man, this is the guy I wanted to win the primary for Rahm Emanuel's old seat. Interesting. Don't see how that makes any of his points any less cogent though.
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Vepres
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 03:25:33 PM »


Oh man, this is the guy I wanted to win the primary for Rahm Emanuel's old seat. Interesting. Don't see how that makes any of his points any less cogent though.

Salon.com
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Vepres
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 03:34:30 PM »

Besides, the author's assertions aren't even credible. After looking for productivity data, I didn't find a single report that showed Germany as more productive than the US.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 03:50:36 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OECD_Productivity_levels_2007.svg

USA and Germany are pretty much tied, and the US is below France and the Benelux countries.
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Ogre Mage
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 04:24:42 PM »
« Edited: September 05, 2010, 04:34:27 PM by Ogre Mage »

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It is very unfortunate that the cost of college is growing out of reach for middle-class families.  A lot of this is due to The Great Recession, though the situation was not helped by GW Bush not funding college aid until he was forced to (in 2007 when Dems took control of Congress).  It was one of many signs of his shitty priorities.

http://badgerherald.com/news/2005/01/17/bush_cuts_pell_grant.php

I would rather see increased Pell Grant aid over continuing the tax breaks for the richest among us.
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Sbane
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2010, 05:37:56 PM »


It's an interview with an author......

The author may be biased though, sure. I don't really know the background of the author. This article was forwarded to me by my sister, who works in a German company and has to deal with German interns on a regular basis. They certainly see pros and cons between living in America and Germany, but for the most part they think it's better back there.
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Vepres
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 09:42:14 AM »


It's an interview with an author......

The author may be biased though, sure. I don't really know the background of the author. This article was forwarded to me by my sister, who works in a German company and has to deal with German interns on a regular basis. They certainly see pros and cons between living in America and Germany, but for the most part they think it's better back there.

Yeah. I think the big problem with workers here is they don't stand up to management enough. That doesn't necessarily mean collective bargaining, either, but merely expecting respect from their bosses.

I also think a lot of it is a generational thing with Boomers, and that when Gen-X and Gen-Y enter management, particularly upper management, in larger numbers, you'll see a shift in attitudes.
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2010, 09:48:40 AM »

The US is just like Germany.... NAZI GERMANY!

/Libertas
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 09:51:57 AM »

And yet there are people (some of whom post on this very forum!) that would argue that Americans are more free or that America is a better country than Germany (or nearly anywhere else in Western or even, these days, Central and parts of Eastern Europe)!

We are and we are.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2010, 02:22:42 PM »

And yet there are people (some of whom post on this very forum!) that would argue that Americans are more free or that America is a better country than Germany (or nearly anywhere else in Western or even, these days, Central and parts of Eastern Europe)!

We are and we are.

Mind providing proof for your arbitrary declaration.
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Vepres
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2010, 05:06:38 PM »


It's an interview with an author......

The author may be biased though, sure. I don't really know the background of the author. This article was forwarded to me by my sister, who works in a German company and has to deal with German interns on a regular basis. They certainly see pros and cons between living in America and Germany, but for the most part they think it's better back there.

The tone of the author came off as biased to me, personally.
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Earth
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2010, 09:16:53 PM »

And yet there are people (some of whom post on this very forum!) that would argue that Americans are more free or that America is a better country than Germany (or nearly anywhere else in Western or even, these days, Central and parts of Eastern Europe)!

We are and we are.

Mind providing proof for your arbitrary declaration.

If I were going on terms of censorship, it would be arguably true. If I were going by labor, and welfare, Germany would win hands down.
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dead0man
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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2010, 12:35:28 AM »

Can't we all* agree that living in either (or anywhere in the West) in 2010 is better than living in most other places now or anywhere on Earth historically?



*excluding, of course, everybody's favorite joke poster and the doofuses that will respond without thinking of all the cool sh**t we have in 2010.
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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 01:16:06 PM »

I agree dead. Lewis, I was talking about free speech and expression. Plus, in the US people have more opportunity for upward mobility.
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opebo
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2010, 01:47:17 PM »

Plus, in the US people have more opportunity for upward mobility.

No, no, Europeans have far more of that than americans, States.  You're 30+ years out of date, if you ever had a point.

Dead0man, the reasons life are better where I am are very specific and related to a minority viewpoint and cultural superiority, not material superiority.  Clearly for the vast majority of people, living in German is better even than living in Thailand.  The american case is not very clear compared to middle income Asian countries, but it is clearly vastly inferior to Western Europe.

However I would like to dispute your absurd notion that a few bits and bobbles of technology make 2010 much better than, say, the height of well being in America (1969-1973).  Yes, there are more computers, but they don't really do anything for the worker except enable him to make more money for his  boss ('productivity'), or to simply play games (to make up for the fact that his sex life and social life is so inferior to that of his predecessor).  Mobile phones - nearly useless except to waste time and annoy, their only practical use being 'where are you' while out and about meeting up with people (problem equally well solved in the 1970s era by the checkable answering machine and the neighborhood 'hangout').  Medical technology, mostly useless - only extends life after it isn't worth living anyway (65-70+). 

Yes, a TV cost a little more vis-a-vis things in general, but a car cost far, far less (and was better), houses cost a tiny fraction of what they do now, and pay was much higher.  So, on the whole, 2010 compares very shabbily to the past, and technology doesn't really do anything to counteract this political decline.  The most you can say about technology is it has slightly blunted the misery we face from getting inexorably poorer and running out out of resources.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2010, 12:50:36 AM »

Look at who is number three in productivity though, Ireland which in 2007 had a 12.5% corporate tax rate and I Think a 0% Cap Gains rate. Not exactly the German model. Plus I would love to see those numbers after the gains in US Productivity in 2009 and 2010.

Lack of education is certainly a problem. But it would be ridiculous to assume that college debts are the main problem. If people truly worrried about college debt they could easily avoid it as much as possible but choose not to. Also administative employement is rising three times as fast as actual educators and student enrollment. I highly doubt gov't paying 100% of all higher education costs would solve that problem. It would just lead to gov't subsidizing of to use his words "waste" on the backs of the tax payers. With that said cutting the pell grant was a horrible idea. Though we can hardly place blame on Bush for a problem in education that developed decades ago.

The main problem in education is in K-12. There is nothing in the German or Japanese model that can solve the US' problem. Lengthing the school day, and extending the school year will only increase the drop out rate. Throwing money at the problem hasn't worked in the last 30 years to halt the decline.

There are some horrible tax policies that encourage "wastefull" investments and their certainly has been a lack of effort to make our manufacturing goods competative. We have been competing with Germany for 40 years, you think the US would have learned how to do it by now. Certainly we have seen a rise in overseas sales of manufactured goods in the emerging markets but I wonder how temporary it is. Let us also not forget that Germany got a huge boost through the decline in the value of the Euro during the recent financial problems.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2010, 01:21:26 AM »

GDP should largely be determined by population once education levels and technology, and internal developements etc etc  are all the same. More people, more exchanges, more GDP. Thats why the US is so much higher then Germany, more people. Hence prior to the Industrial Revolution, China was number one economically.

Productivity is determined to a great extent by 1) The amount of innovation in Production and 2) The amount of education and retraining to meet the new demands for labor.

Denmark has a 96% graduation rate. It would be reasonable to assume the Benelux countries and Norway also have such high graduation rates but without the raw data in front of me right now, I don't know. The US has a 70% graduation rate. That could explain their strength in productivity vis a vis the US.
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Franzl
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2010, 11:12:04 AM »

As the only German American around here....perhaps I should comment Smiley

First of all, I agree with N.C. Yankee that education is the most important issue. Only education can lead to competitiveness in this world, and that's America's main deficit in my opinion. Why am I planning on studying in Munich and why did I never give much thought at all to studying in America? Simple. I get the same quality of education for 1000€ a year rather than $50000 a year. I don't necessarily believe higher education should be free (in fact, I think the upper class benefits more from that than the lower class does, simply because university education MORE than pays for itself after a certain point).

Secondary education, as Yankee also said, is a big problem in the U.S., with quite low graduation rates....and to be honest, even a high school diploma is NOT extremely academically challenging. My Abitur, my high school diploma, covers quite a few things that aren't done until the first year or so of community college. Simply put, it's wasted time and money for something that shouldn't be necessary, it's just inefficient.


That said, I'm not as big a fan of the German labor market as the author apparently is. It's hard to become less flexible than the German market is. Try firing an incompetent employee. Try firing ANY government employee. Then the labor unions, don't get me started on the labor unions. (Although, actually, they're not as strong as in a handful of US states....like Michigan).

Germany has lots and lots of regulations. Starting a business isn't easy. Even getting a job isn't all that easy without jumping through a lot of hoops in many fields. You need this certificate....then that certificate....then a government certified medical exam.....and so on. Then there's the issue of outrageous taxation levels.

Let me put it this way....if we could combine aspects of the German welfare state that I think are necessary (education, healthcare....for the most part) and the American labor market....that would create a pretty good system.


You know...one thing is actually amusing, the author mentions that there are some "socialist" things in the U.S. that would be unheard of in Germany. True enough. Take the totally state-run postal service, for example.....or look at Amtrak. (German train company Deutsche Bahn is owned by the state....but it's pretty much privately run, and it makes a PROFIT!). Nothing like Medicare exists in Germany, lol. Don't forget that we have a minimum wage in the U.S. Doesn'T exist in Germany either. And I've never quite understood why so many U.S. states allow such things as utility monopolies. It's pretty much open, free market competition in Germany.

So yeah, there are some things the U.S. needs to really liberalize, become less socialist in.....and plenty of things that the U.S. needs to recognize that the government can actually do better and more efficiently than anyone else.
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opebo
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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2010, 02:41:14 PM »

Denmark has a 96% graduation rate. It would be reasonable to assume the Benelux countries and Norway also have such high graduation rates but without the raw data in front of me right now, I don't know. The US has a 70% graduation rate. That could explain their strength in productivity vis a vis the US.

Absolute balderdash - it is a huge assumption to make that those two factors are related.  Productivity has a lot more to do with investment in hardware than in whether someone has graduated from a vague low level education or not - the training to run the machine which creates the high productivity will almost always occur on the job (or anyway should). 
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2010, 10:37:35 PM »

Denmark has a 96% graduation rate. It would be reasonable to assume the Benelux countries and Norway also have such high graduation rates but without the raw data in front of me right now, I don't know. The US has a 70% graduation rate. That could explain their strength in productivity vis a vis the US.

Absolute balderdash - it is a huge assumption to make that those two factors are related.  Productivity has a lot more to do with investment in hardware than in whether someone has graduated from a vague low level education or not - the training to run the machine which creates the high productivity will almost always occur on the job (or anyway should). 

The most important part of what you said.


Most US companies are unable or unwilling to retrain workers.

As the only German American around here....perhaps I should comment Smiley

First of all, I agree with N.C. Yankee that education is the most important issue. Only education can lead to competitiveness in this world, and that's America's main deficit in my opinion. Why am I planning on studying in Munich and why did I never give much thought at all to studying in America? Simple. I get the same quality of education for 1000€ a year rather than $50000 a year. I don't necessarily believe higher education should be free (in fact, I think the upper class benefits more from that than the lower class does, simply because university education MORE than pays for itself after a certain point).

Secondary education, as Yankee also said, is a big problem in the U.S., with quite low graduation rates....and to be honest, even a high school diploma is NOT extremely academically challenging. My Abitur, my high school diploma, covers quite a few things that aren't done until the first year or so of community college. Simply put, it's wasted time and money for something that shouldn't be necessary, it's just inefficient.


That said, I'm not as big a fan of the German labor market as the author apparently is. It's hard to become less flexible than the German market is. Try firing an incompetent employee. Try firing ANY government employee. Then the labor unions, don't get me started on the labor unions. (Although, actually, they're not as strong as in a handful of US states....like Michigan).

Germany has lots and lots of regulations. Starting a business isn't easy. Even getting a job isn't all that easy without jumping through a lot of hoops in many fields. You need this certificate....then that certificate....then a government certified medical exam.....and so on. Then there's the issue of outrageous taxation levels.

Let me put it this way....if we could combine aspects of the German welfare state that I think are necessary (education, healthcare....for the most part) and the American labor market....that would create a pretty good system.


You know...one thing is actually amusing, the author mentions that there are some "socialist" things in the U.S. that would be unheard of in Germany. True enough. Take the totally state-run postal service, for example.....or look at Amtrak. (German train company Deutsche Bahn is owned by the state....but it's pretty much privately run, and it makes a PROFIT!). Nothing like Medicare exists in Germany, lol. Don't forget that we have a minimum wage in the U.S. Doesn'T exist in Germany either. And I've never quite understood why so many U.S. states allow such things as utility monopolies. It's pretty much open, free market competition in Germany.

So yeah, there are some things the U.S. needs to really liberalize, become less socialist in.....and plenty of things that the U.S. needs to recognize that the government can actually do better and more efficiently than anyone else.

Interesting perspective.
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opebo
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2010, 11:33:43 AM »

Denmark has a 96% graduation rate. It would be reasonable to assume the Benelux countries and Norway also have such high graduation rates but without the raw data in front of me right now, I don't know. The US has a 70% graduation rate. That could explain their strength in productivity vis a vis the US.

Absolute balderdash - it is a huge assumption to make that those two factors are related.  Productivity has a lot more to do with investment in hardware than in whether someone has graduated from a vague low level education or not - the training to run the machine which creates the high productivity will almost always occur on the job (or anyway should). 

The most important part of what you said.

Most US companies are unable or unwilling to retrain workers.


Sure.  I'm saying they should be required to do so. In any case it is precisely the apprenticeship system, coupled with generous pay and time off, that provides a capable, motivated work force for German companies.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2010, 08:33:51 PM »

Denmark has a 96% graduation rate. It would be reasonable to assume the Benelux countries and Norway also have such high graduation rates but without the raw data in front of me right now, I don't know. The US has a 70% graduation rate. That could explain their strength in productivity vis a vis the US.

Absolute balderdash - it is a huge assumption to make that those two factors are related.  Productivity has a lot more to do with investment in hardware than in whether someone has graduated from a vague low level education or not - the training to run the machine which creates the high productivity will almost always occur on the job (or anyway should). 

The most important part of what you said.

Most US companies are unable or unwilling to retrain workers.


Sure.  I'm saying they should be required to do so. In any case it is precisely the apprenticeship system, coupled with generous pay and time off, that provides a capable, motivated work force for German companies.


I should have emphasized unable. You can't target one without targeting both. You want an entrenched 10% Unemployment rate? Now we know why you support such a comfortable dole. If you want to improve standards of living from a liberal perspective, the goal should always be to move towards full employement. Everything is so much easier when its 5% and not 10%. Surely you know that. Roll Eyes
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