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  Welcome to 1938.. umm..I mean 2010!
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Author Topic: Welcome to 1938.. umm..I mean 2010!  (Read 802 times)
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snowguy716
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« on: September 07, 2010, 06:46:49 PM »

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/06/opinion/06krugman.html?_r=1

A very good article, in my opinion.  Tax cuts and austerity will do nothing but send us back into a crippling recession.  It is time the government talked stimulus with balls.  The infrastructure bill should be $500 billion, not $50 billion. 

There is not reason we shouldn't come out of this recession with a high speed rail network well underway and a freshly paved and improved interstate system.

We need to spend our way out of this recession.  When the private sector gets going again, we'll worry about deficits and inflation.  But the government has to carry the burden through tough times.

The only crime is that during the "good" times, we were deficit spending at record levels with historically low tax rates.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 06:48:09 PM »

And Lunar:  Don't you dare move this into the thread killing "economics" board.  If I had wanted this in economics, I would've put it there.  Thank you.
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Beet
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 07:36:15 PM »

And Lunar:  Don't you dare move this into the thread killing "economics" board.  If I had wanted this in economics, I would've put it there.  Thank you.

Ouch.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 07:45:11 PM »

No offense meant, Beet.  I read the econ board frequently and appreciate your well thought out posts.

But it's not the best board for discussion among a wide variety of forum members.  The General Discussion board is better for hybrid subjects like this one which is generally about economics, but from a strong political standpoint.
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Lunar
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 07:47:07 PM »

I moved some threads to the Econ board when I first started, but I really haven't for a long while, except maybe one that was about some mathematical econ. equations?  Hard to remember.
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Vepres
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 08:09:18 PM »

Of course, the other point of view is the intervention of Hoover and Roosevelt extended the recession.
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Torie
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2010, 09:29:15 PM »

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/06/opinion/06krugman.html?_r=1

A very good article, in my opinion.  Tax cuts and austerity will do nothing but send us back into a crippling recession.  It is time the government talked stimulus with balls.  The infrastructure bill should be $500 billion, not $50 billion.  

There is not reason we shouldn't come out of this recession with a high speed rail network well underway and a freshly paved and improved interstate system.

We need to spend our way out of this recession.  When the private sector gets going again, we'll worry about deficits and inflation.  But the government has to carry the burden through tough times.

The only crime is that during the "good" times, we were deficit spending at record levels with historically low tax rates.

Here is the counterpoint to Mr. Krugman's point. Economics is just so much fun; the more you know, the more you realize how much you don't know.
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Beet
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2010, 10:13:00 PM »

What's really interesting to me is, if you read closely, Shlaes and Krugman, respective hacks for completely opposite positions, agree on quite a bit. Krugman says deficit-hawk fiscal policy caused the recession of 1938; Shlaes starts out her article by agreeing that both monetary and fiscal policy were tightened just before the recession. Then, one of her three points are that taxes were raised, which is a component of tightening fiscal policy. She does go on to talk about wages (Wagner Act) and uncertainty, but doesn't specify exactly how big of a role each of these played. She suggests that wages should be emphasized more. Of course, nothing like a Wagner Act that raises the bargaining power of American workers is in the works today, so this would seem like a moot point. Finally, she argues that the recovery of 1939 required no stimulus, which is true, but skirts around Krugman's argument about WWII. (Krugman said nothing about 1939; so basically they dance around each other, instead of directly disagreeing)

Overall, Shlaes' argument seems to be that fiscal deficits are stimulative, but if government doesn't raise taxes, wages, or uncertainty the economy will naturally boom on its own just as in 1939. The tax argument is an argument for supply side stimulus. This is what Obama is now proposing, ironically. It'll be interesting to see if the Republicans come back with anything, especially since this is what they've been arguing for for the last 18 months. I still think it has less marginal impact per dollar of cost than direct spending, but that's a rather academic question that I don't have the answer to, really.

I find the uncertainty argument unconvincing because uncertainty declined sharply by early summer when PPACA passed and it became clear the Democrats weren't going to get any additional major legislation through Congress, yet this was not accompanied by a sharp uptick in growth.

The wages argument may have something to it, but there is no modern day version of the Wagner Act; a German style short-work program would seem to be the logical conclusion if you thought the problem were wage stickiness. The program has had empirical success over there. But no Republicans have shown an interest.

Here is an even more wonky Chicago Fed paper that tackles fiscal policy, monetary policy, and the change in wages. Overall, it finds that monetary policy was the biggest factor, followed by fiscal policy, followed by wages.

It's WWII that is really the most convincing though, because it's the most dramatic. GDP grew by 15 percent for three years in a row, and unemployment dropped below 2 percent, even as consumer spending basically evaporated.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2010, 10:16:28 PM »

Torie:  There is always more to the story.  I certainly wouldn't say it was *only* austerity that sent the U.S. back into recession in '38... but I would say it played a significant part.

Also, Krugman is not calling for more labor regulation or increased taxes.  He is calling for stimulus money that will be borrowed at low interest rates to spur the economy.  That is borrowed money that can be paid back easily when the economy gets going again.

But, of course, I also understand your skepticism here... our government is largely inept these days.  

This is why I am mostly, if not nearly exclusively, focused on my state and local races this fall.

Welfare and state created health insurance programs have been used at record rates, but are also a key factor in the fact that Minnesota has a significantly lower unemployment rate than the rest of the nation... even when it was higher than the national average earlier on.

Since welfare is really a pittance here anyway... these people will work again if there are jobs.  We have the highest worker participation rate in the nation, after all.  [/MN boosterism]
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