Merkel ally Steinbach quits in row over blame for WWII

[Sibboleth]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11261985

[??????????]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11261985

A bit extreme. No doubt that Germany bears the brunt of the blame but I'm sure Poland was no innocent bystander either.

[The Head Beagle]

Classic BBC headline. Perhaps a fracas will follow the row.

[??????????]

Classic BBC headline. Perhaps a fracas will follow the row.

Whats "in row" exactly mean? I'm not familiar with that term.

[Marokai]

Classic BBC headline. Perhaps a fracas will follow the row.

Whats "in row" exactly mean? I'm not familiar with that term.

Row is, presumably UK, slang for controversy/fight/disagreement, etc.

[Old Europe]

"Merkel ally"?? Not sure about that, many in the CDU are probably glad that they finally got rid of Steinbach. She's been a frequent annoyance for some time now.

Ah, and she doesn't excatly leave the CDU's executive board because she was pressured to do so or something. She leaves because she's pissed at her own party more than anything else. In the last few years, the CDU has often shown reluctance in backing her or her political positions. So Steinbach simply had enough and this is her ultimate "f**k you!". This was the angry kind of resignation and not a humble one.

Anyway, this will fuel the speculations that a new conservative party could be formed as an alternative to the increasingly "liberal" CDU at some point in the future.

[Vasall des Midas]

Irrelevant. The BdV (leadership) has always been basically the Continuity NSDAP within the CDU btw, nothing special about Steinbach in that respect.
 

[Sibboleth]

Perhaps a fracas will follow the row.

Oh, I do hope so.

[GMantis]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11261985

A bit extreme. No doubt that Germany bears the brunt of the blame but I'm sure Poland was no innocent bystander either.

The only thing Poland could do to avoid the war would be to surrender all areas demanded by Germany. And this would have only delayed the war for several months.

[??????????]

Oh I agree.

[GMantis]

Oh I agree.

Then why did you make that statement about Polish blame.

[??????????]

My point is that I doubt that poland was a 100% completely innocent victim, just like France.

[GMantis]

My point is that I doubt that poland was a 100% completely innocent victim, just like France.

And my point was that short of unconditionally surrendering, there was no way for Poland to avoid the war, which is why the apologist view of this war is so ridiculous.

[??????????]

Yes, but the view that some teach that a country like France was a victim is just as ridiculous.

[GMantis]

Yes, but the view that some teach that a country like France was a victim is just as ridiculous.

France wasn't in the path of Hitler's expansion to the Ural so it could avoid war with Germany, also France as a great power could stop Germany's expansion at an early point, so France is indeed not entirely a victim.  Still, considering the consequences of a German dominated Europe, declaring war on Germany is certainly defensible on moral grounds, so to say that they weren't a victim at all would be incorrect.

[??????????]

I definitely see your point. My main curiosity is what was Poland's prewar foreign policy like in regards to Germany? Were they hostile, friendly or neutral?

[Vasall des Midas]

Define "prewar". By 1939, fairly hostile out of necessity.
There's also the issue of the German minority in Poland - while the issue of the remaining Polish minority in Germany - actually rather larger - strangely disappeared from view entirely over the course of the 1920s and early 30s.

[London Man]

Poland mobilised its military in March 1939 when Germany invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia, IIRC.

[GMantis]

Poland mobilised its military in March 1939 when Germany invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia, IIRC.

However, they were demobilized, so that Poland had to restart mobilization at the end of August 1939 and due to the interference of France, managed only a 70% by the outbreak of the war.
So yes, Steinbach's statement is completely dishonest.

[Vasall des Midas]

Poland mobilised its military in March 1939 when Germany invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia, IIRC.

A small part of it, largely as a token gesture.

Given that Germany had just invaded two neighboring countries (Lithuania being the other) and were using quite threatening language against Poland all throughout... it was quite literally the least they could do.

[Bacon King]

Yes, but the view that some teach that a country like France was a victim is just as ridiculous.

France wasn't in the path of Hitler's expansion to the Ural so it could avoid war with Germany, also France as a great power could stop Germany's expansion at an early point, so France is indeed not entirely a victim.  Still, considering the consequences of a German dominated Europe, declaring war on Germany is certainly defensible on moral grounds, so to say that they weren't a victim at all would be incorrect.

Assuming Poland would have given in and ceded Danzig et al, Hitler would have probably started demanding the "rightfully German" Alsace-Lorraine from France, as it would the only area left to be claimed out of Germany's already-existing territorial ambitions. This border region of course held the huge defensive forts of the Maginot Line, so we could have been similar in some ways to the Sudetenland crisis where Hitler gobbles up the border areas of a country on the pretext of defending ethnic Germans while also taking over the country's main defensive line.

Of course, Hitler was a maniac, so who knows how this speculative alternate history would have actually unfolded.

[rob in cal]

I've always been intrigued by the fact that Hitler's demands on Poland did not include all territory from the former Germany that Poland was awarded after WW One. He did not demand any part of Polish Upper Silesia, or territory in the Posen/Poznan West Prussia region. Instead the final German demands, which they had been talking about since around the start of 1939 were Polish agreement to German annexation of Danzig, and Germany taking the corridor, either thru a plebiscite (this idea came out in the end of August right before the invasion) or right away.
Had Poland agreed to these terms, somewhat similar to the German takeover of the Memel region from Lithuania on March 18, 1939, there is of course no telling what then would have happened.  Personally I believe Hitler would have attempted to draw Poland, as a technically intact, still sovreign nation, into a war of conquest against the Soviets, with Poland serving as a German ally just as other east european countries did in fact, such as Hungary, Rumania, and the puppet states of Croatia and Slovakia.

[Bacon King]

I've always been intrigued by the fact that Hitler's demands on Poland did not include all territory from the former Germany that Poland was awarded after WW One. He did not demand any part of Polish Upper Silesia, or territory in the Posen/Poznan West Prussia region. Instead the final German demands, which they had been talking about since around the start of 1939 were Polish agreement to German annexation of Danzig, and Germany taking the corridor, either thru a plebiscite (this idea came out in the end of August right before the invasion) or right away.
Had Poland agreed to these terms, somewhat similar to the German takeover of the Memel region from Lithuania on March 18, 1939, there is of course no telling what then would have happened.  Personally I believe Hitler would have attempted to draw Poland, as a technically intact, still sovreign nation, into a war of conquest against the Soviets, with Poland serving as a German ally just as other east european countries did in fact, such as Hungary, Rumania, and the puppet states of Croatia and Slovakia.

Interesting bit of speculation. Had Poland ceded Danzig but not gone to war, Stalin would have almost certainly still pushed to claim the land the Soviet Union was given in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and that would have pushed Poland quite strongly into the Axis camp just as the Soviets' claims against Karelia in Finland and Bessarabia in Romania did for those countries.

Or, if Poland had given into Germany but not the Soviet Union, then the British would have supported Poland against Stalin, given their defensive pact. Hitler would quickly join in the fight as well, of course, fighting against the Soviet Union alongside the British. Probably what he was actually hoping for, considering his adulation for England. This intention especially makes sense considering the apparent "compromise" nature of German claims, like you state.

[afleitch]

Poland still gets in the way of Hitler's territorial ambitions though even if there is an invasion of the Soviet Union. Something would have to give. Hitler could have 'requested' the old Prussian territories while allowing Poland to achieve it's 1919/1920 ambitions of pushing its border east into Belarus and Ukraine (along the lines of the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth). Germany could then set up a series of buffer states between there and the rump of Russia that would remain after the defeat of the Soviet Union. It's entirely possible that this would have been enough. Remember Hitler was putting pressure on Slovakia to declare independence prior to his final move on Czechoslovakia; he simply wanted Bohemia-Moravia and had no territorial interest in Slovakia.