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| | | |-+  Do liberals deserve what they get?
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Author Topic: Do liberals deserve what they get?  (Read 5353 times)
A18
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2004, 11:05:49 pm »
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Everyone who already got stuck paying into the ridiculous system needs to get his/her money back out. Other than that, I say kill them both.

Is Bush a conservative? Because he obviously doesn't hate Medicare, being the one to sign the biggest expansion of it into law since LBJ.
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« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2004, 11:06:27 pm »
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I have to admit smaller government probably benefits me, but it is assinine for the average person to be in favor of it - the great majority of people will be much poorer under the new laissez-faire regime.  Anyone remember the nineteenth century? 

I don't advocate complete laissez-faire, though moving towards that direction would be good. No government interference can result in monopolies, cartels, and trusts - the bad aspects of capitalism, which works best when things are competitive. Less unnecessary regulations would make goods cheaper to produce, and therefore in a competitive environment that would make goods cheaper - everyone benefits from that, both sellers and buyers on all levels. Less taxes would give people more money to spend, once again benefiting buyers and sellers. Devolution(giving duties currently run by the federal government to state and local governments) can result in more efficient and customizable services.

Also, it's kind of hard to compare a laizze-faire 19th century to a laizze-faire 21st century - technology has come a great distance, and the Industrial Revolution is over. It would be much different.

I would strongly recommend you read 'The Iron Heel' by Jack London. It was written around 1904, and foresaw a great many things that are present in our modern society. Also has much economic commentary.
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bushforever
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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2004, 11:07:26 pm »
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We will kill Social Security this administration though, and privitize it into accounts like it or not. 


Why is the president afraid to explicitly say it?

Quote

Would any president say something as blunt as that...I don't think so.

All thanks to my hero, G.W.  America is a free, ownership society, not a communist or dicatorial society. 

According to your assertion, most of European countries are Communist dictatorships.


Yep...I generally don't like much of Europe and the new way of doing business over there.  They'll figure it out eventually though.  It's also different as most of those countries are a heck of a lot smaller than America.  

In my opinion, people should not be forced to help other people.  If I invested more money in my retirement account and I took an economics class, and I thus have more money to retire on...so be it.  You failed in life...that's your fault...oh well.  If we weren't taxed up the wazoo with SS...middle class would be upper-middle class and working class would be middle class.  The working poor would still be the working poor though, but they would have a lot to strive for.
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A18
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2004, 11:10:50 pm »
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Social Security doesn't help poor people. More often, it rips them off (like everyone else).
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J. J.
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« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2004, 11:11:23 pm »
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Listen carefully to Conservative commentators, talk show hosts and some house representatives and senators who are not careful enough in shutting their mouth.

I have, and I don't share your delusions.  

You really shouldn't listen to "commentators" of any party.  Should I think that Michael MoreBigMacs speaks for John Kerry and the entire Democratic Party?
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J. J.

"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

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The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
A18
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« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2004, 11:13:07 pm »
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Well, I'm a [fiscal] conservative, and I'm completely in favor of killing Social Security and Medicare. But everyone who's already in the system should obviously get coverage.
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Shira
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« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2004, 11:29:00 pm »
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Quote from: bushforever link=topic=12444.msg273054#msg273054

Yep...I generally don't like much of Europe and the new way of doing business over there.  They'll figure it out eventually though.  It's also different as most of those countries are a heck of a lot smaller than America.  

In my opinion, people should not be forced to help other people.  If I invested more money in my retirement account and I took an economics class, and I thus have more money to retire on...so be it.  You failed in life...that's your fault...oh well.  If we weren't taxed up the wazoo with SS...middle class would be upper-middle class and working class would be middle class.  The working poor would still be the working poor though, but they would have a lot to strive for.

The Cons like the example of someone who was born poor and became rich. (And there are some examples)
In reality the vast majority of rich people are rich (guess why)…… because they were born rich.
The poor are poor because they were born poor. The Cons, however, are trying to indoctrinate the theory that the poor are poor because they are lazy or because they are “failing to initiate”.
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A18
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« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2004, 11:32:46 pm »
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Shira, it is an absolute fact that 90% of rich people earned it themselves. You can spin it all you want, but that's the statistic.

By the way, some of the exceptions would be the entire Kennedy family.
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bushforever
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« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2004, 11:36:53 pm »
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Quote from: bushforever link=topic=12444.msg273054#msg273054

Yep...I generally don't like much of Europe and the new way of doing business over there.  They'll figure it out eventually though.  It's also different as most of those countries are a heck of a lot smaller than America.  

In my opinion, people should not be forced to help other people.  If I invested more money in my retirement account and I took an economics class, and I thus have more money to retire on...so be it.  You failed in life...that's your fault...oh well.  If we weren't taxed up the wazoo with SS...middle class would be upper-middle class and working class would be middle class.  The working poor would still be the working poor though, but they would have a lot to strive for.

The Cons like the example of someone who was born poor and became rich. (And there are some examples)
In reality the vast majority of rich people are rich (guess why)…… because they were born rich.
The poor are poor because they were born poor. The Cons, however, are trying to indoctrinate the theory that the poor are poor because they are lazy or because they are “failing to initiate”.


It's true.  I'm sorry but you are nothing but a pessimist if you think a poor person can't get anywhere in life.  It all starts with education, and Bush took significant strides in creating "No Child Left Behind".  I also believe his goal to put a community center in every rural county is also encouraging.  The poor have the opportunity to speak out.  They have consistently chose Jesse Jacka$$ among other dems.  And they're still poor.  And middle class people are still being taxed with a social security that doesn't work.  The poor will continue to be poor until they trust the republicans, who in the end, have to fix all the problems the democrats created or neglected.

"I belive in rags to riches, your inheritance won't last, so take your gray poupon my friend, and shove it up your a$$"
-Steven Tyler of Aerosmith in the song "Eat the Rich"
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"But honestly...what's the point?  You're stupid"
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A18
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« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2004, 11:48:41 pm »
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I'm more worried about fixing the idiotic 5,000 page tax code. Replace it with a sales tax, or at least a simple income tax.
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Shira
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« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2004, 11:49:37 pm »
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Shira, it is an absolute fact that 90% of rich people earned it themselves. You can spin it all you want, but that's the statistic.

By the way, some of the exceptions would be the entire Kennedy family.

One who was born with $100,000 and died with $10,000,000 is not exactly “poor who became rich”. One who was born with $0 in a poor neighborhood and became a millionaire does meet the definition of “poor who became rich”. These are rare creatures but in many cases they are famous.
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Understand, ye brutish among the people:and ye fools, when will ye be wise?
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A18
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« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2004, 11:55:17 pm »
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The point isn't how many poor people became rich. I don't know what the statistics are on that. It's that wealth in this country isn't tied up in a hierarchy of wealthy of families, like you're trying to make it sound.

The 90% of wealthy people who earned it could have been dirt poor or middle class. Completely irrelevant.
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J. J.
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« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2004, 11:55:38 pm »
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Shira, it is an absolute fact that 90% of rich people earned it themselves. You can spin it all you want, but that's the statistic.

By the way, some of the exceptions would be the entire Kennedy family.

One who was born with $100,000 and died with $10,000,000 is not exactly “poor who became rich”. One who was born with $0 in a poor neighborhood and became a millionaire does meet the definition of “poor who became rich”. These are rare creatures but in many cases they are famous.

How about the several dozen people that I know that started out with nothing and one or two generations they are middle class.  It's happened over and over again.
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J. J.

"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

"Every government are parliaments of whores.
The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
bushforever
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« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2004, 11:56:16 pm »
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In my opinion, one whose family made $30,000 and who now makes $50,000 certainly qualifies.  Anyone who is the first in their family to go to college qualifies.  You don't have to be a millioniaire to advance up the ladder.
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"I can hear you, the rest of the world can hear you, and the people who knocked down these buildings will hear from all of us soon!!"
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"But honestly...what's the point?  You're stupid"
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A18
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« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2004, 12:00:54 am »
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And no one that I'm aware of is born into a family with $0. Anyone who's that poor is mentally ill, plain and simple.
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Shira
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« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2004, 12:03:32 am »
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Shira, it is an absolute fact that 90% of rich people earned it themselves. You can spin it all you want, but that's the statistic.

By the way, some of the exceptions would be the entire Kennedy family.

You are correct  about Kennedy ( you can add Bush and Kerry to this list as well) but these are not exceptions, they are like the vast majority of rich people.  A better example could have been J.Edwards, but he also did not exactly start from a deep poverty.
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Understand, ye brutish among the people:and ye fools, when will ye be wise?
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J. J.
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« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2004, 12:08:03 am »
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Shira, I love how seen incapable of answering my questions and facing reality.
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J. J.

"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

"Every government are parliaments of whores.
The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
A18
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« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2004, 12:10:25 am »
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Wrong, they're exceptions.

As for whether or not those who earned it were born poor, not necessarily. Some inherited a small business and turned it into a giant corporation.

The most important factor in getting wealthy is obviously education and skill.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2004, 12:14:20 am »
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Not many Americans, whether in the ghetto or on main street are in true deep deep poverty meaning they have 0$. Even the poorest Americans own at least one television or vehicle.
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A18
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« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2004, 12:17:13 am »
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Not many Americans, whether in the ghetto or on main street are in true deep deep poverty meaning they have 0$. Even the poorest Americans own at least one television or vehicle.

And the vehicle is taxed, thanks to Democrats
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Shira
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« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2004, 12:33:22 am »
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I am sure that every one of us knows personally at least 20 individuals who are worth 1 M or more. Try to go into the economical history of this person and find out why this person is wealthy. In the last year (since I became interested in this issue) I had the opportunity to observe 17 people like this (two of them are good friends of mine). Out of these 17 in my non-scientific sample, only one really deserves the title “A self made person”.
Remember that a usual problem with these kind of observations is, that people tend to better remember the exception than the common.
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Understand, ye brutish among the people:and ye fools, when will ye be wise?
___________
Psalm 94:8
A18
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« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2004, 12:34:50 am »
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I don't know a single person who inherited big wealth. I do know a lot of people who earned it, however.
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bushforever
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« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2004, 12:39:56 am »
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I don't even I can come up with a list of 20 millionaires I know personally.  The few I do know earned their money, worked hard, and invested, saved, or spent wisely.  Disproving your theory that all Republicans are rich or that all rich people are heirs.
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"I can hear you, the rest of the world can hear you, and the people who knocked down these buildings will hear from all of us soon!!"
-George W. Bush

Economic Left/Right: 3.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 6.10

"But honestly...what's the point?  You're stupid"
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Shira
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« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2004, 12:54:08 am »
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Disproving your theory that all Republicans are rich.

Most of them are not. Many are low middle class, close to the poverty line and some are even below.
The problem is that ignorance and religion are playing major roles in the behavior of low income people.


« Last Edit: November 09, 2004, 01:28:09 am by Shira »Logged

Understand, ye brutish among the people:and ye fools, when will ye be wise?
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Psalm 94:8
bushforever
bushwillwin
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« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2004, 12:56:20 am »
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Religion is very key to underpaid people in the heartland.  Dems have a long way to go on that issue.
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"I can hear you, the rest of the world can hear you, and the people who knocked down these buildings will hear from all of us soon!!"
-George W. Bush

Economic Left/Right: 3.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 6.10

"But honestly...what's the point?  You're stupid"
-danwxman
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