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Author Topic: 58% of americans favor creation of third party  (Read 3004 times)
Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2010, 03:49:56 pm »
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Can't we just switch to Proportional representation?  It would eliminate this problem entirely.

Absolutely not.

You're approaching some sort of cliche reactionary status. I can't think of any legitimate reasons why someone would oppose proportional representation unless it's a purely selfish "I wouldn't like the results of it" reason.
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sparkey
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2010, 04:00:25 pm »
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Can't we just switch to Proportional representation?  It would eliminate this problem entirely.

Absolutely not.

Do you mean that we can't "just switch" to PR? Or that it wouldn't eliminate the problem? Because if you mean the latter, I don't think that that's a defensible position. If "the problem" is a lack of third parties, then PR does fix it--look at anywhere in the world that there's PR. The Netherlands, for example, wouldn't have so many parties if they had US-style representation.
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2010, 04:26:17 pm »
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It would also have the benefit of eliminating gerrymandering, as there wouldn't really be any districts to draw every census.
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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2010, 10:14:02 pm »
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a choice between two extremists in the general.

How does the two party system create extremes? The last few elections have been anything but extremists.

Clinton v Dole
Bush v Gore
Bush v Kerry
Obama v McCain

These guys were extremists? More like party hacks.

Presidential primaries are no where near the same as congressional primaries.  In individual congressional races the choices are often between a far right Republican and a far left Democrat.
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Badger
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2010, 11:43:50 pm »

Can't we just switch to Proportional representation?  It would eliminate this problem entirely.

Absolutely not.

You're approaching some sort of cliche reactionary status. I can't think of any legitimate reasons why someone would oppose proportional representation unless it's a purely selfish "I wouldn't like the results of it" reason.

Personally I have some concerns about the US turning out like Israel where umpteen different parties enter and the threshhold for representation is so low (5% IIRC) that major parties can rarely form a coalition on their own without reaching out to the extreme fringe (usually religious oriented) parties and grant them major concessions to form a deal for governance.

Of course that scenario does have somewhat less threat in this country where politically active religious extremists already have effective control over one of the two major parties....
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2010, 12:31:31 am »
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Proportional representation? When the hell did this become Eastern Europe?
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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2010, 12:34:05 am »
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I question whether PR would be the best system for America.
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2010, 12:56:01 am »
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And what... 40% of Americans don't vote...  Was this a poll of just people or voters?  If it's just people, I put very little stock into it, since a large amount of them don't/won't ever vote.
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2010, 07:54:33 am »
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Of course that scenario does have somewhat less threat in this country where politically active religious extremists already have effective control over one of the two major parties....

Please tell me you're joking? If not that is absolutely hyperbolic nonsense.
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Badger
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« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2010, 10:10:11 am »

Of course that scenario does have somewhat less threat in this country where politically active religious extremists already have effective control over one of the two major parties....

Please tell me you're joking? If not that is absolutely hyperbolic nonsense.

Sure, States. The religious right has almost NO influence whatsoever on the GOP's hard-line social conservatism. Roll Eyes

Of course coming from someone for whom "old times there are not forgotten"--ever--and who cites "50k years of human nature" as a reason for kids to languish in orphanages rather than the horror of their being adopted by gays, well, "social conservativism" is rather relative, no?
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StatesRights
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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2010, 10:14:55 am »
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Of course that scenario does have somewhat less threat in this country where politically active religious extremists already have effective control over one of the two major parties....

Please tell me you're joking? If not that is absolutely hyperbolic nonsense.

Sure, States. The religious right has almost NO influence whatsoever on the GOP's hard-line social conservatism. Roll Eyes


To call them "extremists" is really inane hackery. Westboro Baptist Church is extreme, mainline Protestantism and Evangelicals aren't really extreme. Very very very few of the Christians involved in politics at the moment are pushing for any sort of theocracy that you'd imagine in your head. And don't use me as any sort of example, I'm outside the scope of the normal political spectrum, just like most of the leftists here are.

Being pro-life, pro-family and other social conservative positions are not "extreme" by most any standard in this country.
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Badger
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« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2010, 12:27:08 pm »

Of course that scenario does have somewhat less threat in this country where politically active religious extremists already have effective control over one of the two major parties....

Please tell me you're joking? If not that is absolutely hyperbolic nonsense.

Sure, States. The religious right has almost NO influence whatsoever on the GOP's hard-line social conservatism. Roll Eyes


To call them "extremists" is really inane hackery. Westboro Baptist Church is extreme, mainline Protestantism and Evangelicals aren't really extreme. Very very very few of the Christians involved in politics at the moment are pushing for any sort of theocracy that you'd imagine in your head. And don't use me as any sort of example, I'm outside the scope of the normal political spectrum, just like most of the leftists here are.

Being pro-life, pro-family and other social conservative positions are not "extreme" by most any standard in this country.

I'm well aware that mainline Christian Churches aren't 'extremist", States. I actually belong to one.

If Westboro Baptist is even close to your threshold for religious extremism, that rather proves my point, game, set and match.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2010, 10:51:42 pm »
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If Westboro Baptist is even close to your threshold for religious extremism, that rather proves my point, game, set and match.

Uh, I was just using them as an example. I couldn't think of anything closer. I'd certainly say they are the most extreme church right now. What words are you trying to put in my mouth? Really, IMHO, they're all horse crap, Catholicism is the true church anyway.
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2010, 01:43:42 pm »
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Being pro-life, pro-family and other social conservative positions are not "extreme" by most any standard in this country.

They are religious extremism and moves towards theocracy, States - attempting to impose the religious person's views upon the non-religious.
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« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2010, 12:41:12 am »
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Can't we just switch to Proportional representation?  It would eliminate this problem entirely.

That's the key, but it's unlikely, because it would require a constitutional amendment, and Republican and Democratic congresspeople are among the least likely to support it.

That's the major problem.  Democrats and Republicans have entrenched the two-party system into election law in order to protect themselves and they are therefore the least likely to support any kind of reform, let alone an amendment to the Constitution.

IMO a much easier reform to pass than a proportional representation would be implementing instant run-off voting.  That's how you'd get independents like Crist and other moderates elected.  It would pull everything back to the center instead of pushing it out to the extremes like the current two-step system where the primaries eliminate the moderates and you end up with a choice between two extremists in the general.  If people don't feel like they're wasting their votes on third parties then they'll be more likely to vote for them.

It's unclear (as far as I've seen) what party system IRV encourages.
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« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2010, 03:13:59 am »
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The best thing that could possibly happen to this country would be the formation of a formal Conservative/Tea Party.

This would drain all true--and some dumb neos who think they are true--conservatives out of the GOP and put moderate heroism into that party (because when you look at the history of the Republican Party as well as the history of the term "Republican," that's where it belongs).  Then, by draining all the blue dogs out of the Democratic Party, it would finally allow them to become the passionately liberal party they haven't been in 40 years.

This would then allow people to actually know what they are getting when the go vote.

Time and time again the StatesRights and jferns of this country have voted party line in hopes of getting someone who will fight for conservative and liberal values only to get a representative who spends his term swinging watered down deals.

Conservatives are conservative block, Democrats are liberal block, and Republicans form the coalitions (and there's still plenty of htmldons... or hell, me... to vote for coalitioners) that the decide the passage or failure of each bill.

Now, I know what you're gonna say: how is having the conservatives, liberals, and moderate heros separate on the ballot but all still in office going to solve anything?  The answer is very simple: with three parties, any candidate will only need 35% of the vote to be re-elected.  That low of a quota will allow conservatives and liberals to stand their ground and the moderates to vote as they please without worry about a public opinion survey.

It will never happen, but it would solve a lot.

Then you should work to change our Constitution to create a system much more amenable for a multi-party system.

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Gustaf
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« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2010, 05:44:47 am »
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Proportional representation? When the hell did this become Eastern Europe?

When the hell did Western Europe become Eastern Europe?
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« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2010, 11:39:51 pm »
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58% of americans favor creation of third party

57% of americans favor creation of third party and are too stupid to vote for one that already exists.

I wonder what percentage actually favors the elimination of all political parties.
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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2010, 12:44:04 am »
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One wonders if that means that only 42% of Americans realize that third parties make no sense given the dynamics of 'democracy'.
It depends on how the polling question was asked.
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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2010, 02:06:21 am »
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There are already third parties....
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sparkey
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« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2010, 11:52:29 am »
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There are already third parties....

The poll asked if a third "major" party was needed.
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Meeker
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« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2010, 12:42:37 pm »
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Within five years of the creation of this "major third party", approximately 58% of Americans will say they favor the creation of a fourth party.
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« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2010, 01:02:46 pm »
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Proportional representation? When the hell did this become Eastern Europe?

Yes, I know living under a multi-party system is difficult for your imagination.
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2010, 08:51:10 am »
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There are already third parties....

The poll asked if a third "major" party was needed.

The Greens, Libertarians and the Constitution Party are on the ballot in many states.
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« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2010, 11:45:33 pm »
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A 3rd party in this country could only survive if it was considered not to be liberal or conservative.
I think the wedge issue of abortion makes this impossible. There is no way to explain that you are neutral on the issue. You could say you want to leave it to the states, or you are against it but don't want to impose your views on others, but either way, that party would fall into one of 2 categories, pro-abortion or pro-life.
So I think it's going to be impossible to sustain a 3rd party. A new one may push a current one out, but I don't think more than 2 major parties will ever be in place for a long period of time.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 11:47:41 pm by hotpprs »Logged
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