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Author Topic: The Concession Speech We'd Like to Hear  (Read 21188 times)
The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2004, 04:09:35 am »
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You are a flaming idiot with a snotty attitude.  Your learning curve is non-existent.  You keep coming back with the same old tired crap and DNC talking points, and every time you get the same dominating rebuttal from some GOPer on the board.  When are you going to figure out that your attacks have no merit whatsoever?

You are an insulting little man who clearly cannot hold a rational conversation without turning to insults.  Some day you're going to come to the realization that there is good and there is bad in both parties.

GAY MARRIAGE
Years ago interracial marriage was taboo.  Many argued that allowing an interracial marriage was against biblical teachings and altered the nature of marriage.  Today I think we can agree that is ridiculous.

As for the argument about marriage, I do not believe that the state forms a marriage.  They can give certain legal rights to a couple who wishes to be recognized as married, but only GOD can form a marriage.  That being said, any 2 sane adults who want to be recognized by the state as married should be able to be recognized by the state as married.  This doesn't mean that any church or any outside individual has to think of them as married, but they do have to respect their rights.

If you don't believe a state forms a marriage, you need to take a class in the basics of civil law.  The state forms marriages, and their definitions affect how the rest of society behaves towards the institution.

BUSH BIN LADEN QUOTE
Ahh ... I see, so parsing a Bush quote is no fair but when the Bushies parsed a Kerry quote it was ok?  I see ... very nice.  Double standard.  Well done.

Once again, you make the "No fair, you do it too!" argument without feeling the need to provide an example of us actually doing what you say we're doing.  If you have a parsed or out of context quote you'd like to share with the rest of us, please do.  Until then, I stand by my positon (which you haven't even attempted to refute, for the effort would be futile) that you and John Kerry both lied about what the President said regarding bin Laden.

STEEL TARIFFS AND THE WTO
Actually the dropping of the steel tariffs had less to do with the WTO and more to do with the threat by European nations to impose tariffs on American goods.  They had been saying this for weeks.  The White House knew it was contemplating dropping the tariffs.  But Bush's political arm wanted to grab the last bit of money he could get before they were dropped.  It was a sleazy move.  Typical of a politician.

You leave out one critical point.  The Europeans could only contemplate tariffs in retaliation because the WTO had explicitly authorized them to do so!  That is the built in enforcement mechanism the WTO uses, is the authorization of retaliatory protectionist measures.  Without this approval, the Europeans would never have made their threat.  So in the end, the direct cause of the repeal of the steel tariffs was STILL the WTO, not the White house.

SADDAM CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Do you really need the history on this??

In 1981 US Sec of State, Alexander Haig reported to the Senate foreign relations committee that the relationship between the Soviet Union and Iraq was breaking down.  An opportunity existed for the US to become "friendly" with Iraq (who were currently at war with Iran).  They jumped at it.

Donald Rumsfeld was dispatched as a representative.  Using its allies in the Middle East, Washington funnelled huge supplies of arms to Iraq. Declassified State Department cables described covert transfers of howitzers, helicopters, bombs and other weapons to Baghdad in 1982-83 from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Kuwait.  The January 1, 1984 Washington Post reported that the US had “informed friendly Persian Gulf nations that the defeat of Iraq in the three-year-old war with Iran would be ‘contrary to US interests' and has made several moves to prevent that result”.

A 1994 US Senate report revealed that US companies were licenced by the commerce department to export a “witch's brew” of biological and chemical materials, including bacillus anthracis (which causes anthrax) and clostridium botulinum (the source of botulism). The American Type Culture Collection made 70 shipments of the anthrax bug and other pathogenic agents.  The report also noted that US exports to Iraq included the precursors to chemical warfare agents, plans for chemical and biological warfare facilities and chemical warhead filling equipment. US firms supplied advanced and specialised computers, lasers, testing and analysing equipment.

Former US Intelligence operatives have come forward to say not only were we providing Iraq with the materials to make chemical weapons, we had experts there to show them how.

On March 16, 1988, Iraqi forces launched a poison gas attack on the Iraqi Kurdish village of Halabja, killing 5000 people. While that attack is today being touted by senior US officials as one of the main reasons why Hussein must now be “taken out”, at the time Washington's response to the atrocity was much more relaxed.

On September 8, 1988, the US Senate passed the Prevention of Genocide Act, which would have imposed sanctions on the Hussein regime. Immediately, the Reagan administration announced its opposition to the bill, calling it “premature”. The White House used its influence to stall the bill in the House of Representatives. When Congress did eventually pass the bill, the White House did not implement it.

Let's begin by dispelling the irrelevant and/or circumstantial evidence so we can focus only on the substantive evidence.

Al Haig claiming the US had an opportunity to improve relations with Iraq demonstrates nothing about chemical weapons.  Sending a US envoy has nothing to do with chemical weapons either.  America inaction regarding human rights also demonstrates nothing about chemical weapons.  The weak response after Halabja likewise demonstrates nothing about the US providing weapons to Iraq.

Evidence that the US greased the wheels for Egypt and Jordan selling "huge supplies" of arms to Iraq (while in and of itself a less than credible claim) says nothing about chemical weapons either.  The claim that the US provided "huge supplies" of arms to Iraq is already a discredited claim.  I have repeatedly linked to information debunking this claim, demonstrating that the total value of US-Iraqi arms deals was only $25 million in deals, whereas the USSR did over $25 billion in deals.

You're going to need a citation demonstrating that the US government was teaching Iraq to make chemical weapons.

As for your information regarding US precursor chemical sales, it is not anything that I haven't already acknowledged.  We sold Iraq "dual use materials".  This is different than chemical weapons, and to claim other wise is either to not understand how chemical weapons are made and how international trade is done, or it is to willfully misrepresent the facts.

It appears that it is not I who needs a history lesson after all.

SOCIAL PROGRAM CUT BY BUSH
I think we can both agree that this administration spends uncontrollably.  That being said, I'd argue that what they spend on isn't necessarily what I would spend on.  38 different programs in the Dept of Education (including school counseling and programs designed to improve poor children's reading skills) were killed by this administration.  Bush cut funding for water projects, rural conservation, aid to state and local law enforcement agencies, the Amtrak passenger railroad, and federal prisons.

It is interesting to note that Bush proposed increasing defense spending by 7% (not including Iraq and Afghanistan costs this year and next) and domestic security by 10%.  To pay for much of this Bush proposed outright cuts in the budgets of 7 of the 16 Cabinet-level agencies, including Agriculture, Justice and the Environmental Protection Agency.

He didn't propose cuts in the budget he presented to Congress.  The only "cuts" proposed were cuts in the rate of growth.  When your friend Dean was accused of supporting cuts in Medicare, he pointed out that he supported was cuts in the rate of growth, which he said, is very different.
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Shut you hole... Conservatism is dead. I hope I get to see your head paraded on a pike with it.
Wakie
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« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2004, 08:26:08 pm »
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Are you seriously saying you don’t understand what Dean said?  His point is plain and simple, if the government refuses to tell us what it knew and when it knew it people are going to come up with outlandish theories.

Now, in response to your bet that I couldn’t come up with an expletive ridden tirade … well, it isn’t expletive ridden, but read Jackie Mason’s comments about Clinton in 1998, http://www.jewishsf.com/bk980710/etbill.htm  I guess the Republicans leave the expletives for the VP.

You asked for Republican ‘hate’ comments so here ya go ….

-Dick Cheney very famously told Americans that if they don’t vote for him they would be attacked.

-On his tv show Rush Limbaugh very famously compared a then 13-y/o Chelsea Clinton to a dog.  (IMHO this was the ALL-TIME low in American politics.)

-Dick Armey repeatedly has attacked openly gay Congressman Barney Frank, calling him “Barney Fag”.  He even did it in an interview with a number of reporters.  http://archive.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=9187

-“Mr. Clinton better watch out if he comes down here. He’d better have a bodyguard.”  Jesse Helms threatens the President of the United States

-“One might have that [homosexual] lifestyle, but if one promotes it as acceptable behavior… I don’t think they should be a representative of this country.”  Sen Don Nickles

-"Robert Black, the [Texas] state [Republican] party spokesman, called them [Log Cabin] a 'hate group' and compared them to the Ku Klux Klan." [This occurred after Log cabin Republicans (a gay republican group) tried to attend the Texas Republican State convention.] - NY Daily News 6/24/98

-There were Alan Keyes comments on homosexuality …
" 'Hitler and his supporters were Satanists and homosexuals.  That's just a true statement.'   He added, 'The notion that is involved in homosexuality, the unbridled sort of satisfaction of human passions' leads to 'totalitarianism,' 'Nazism,' and 'communism.' "

-Pat Robertson told his tv audience to pray that God kill off “liberal Supreme Court Judges”.

-"Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do."  Ann Coulter

-Ross Perot (yeah I know he is technically an independent but technically so is Bill Maher) compares Bill Clinton to Hitler. http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a360f8d25189c.htm

-Remember when Trent Lott told a room full of people that if America had elected Strom Thurmond (and his segregation platform) President “we wouldn’t have had all these problems over all these years”.

-“When you see a blonde with great tits and a great ass you say to yourself, ‘Hey she must be stupid or must have nothing else to offer’”  Arnold Schwarzenegger, July 2003 Esquire Magazine Interview … I included this to reinforce what a stand up guy Arnie is

-“I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”  George HW Bush 8/27/87 at O’Hare Airport

-“You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing.  Nonsense.  I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.”  Pat Robertson, 700 Club, 1/14/91

-“Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.”  Pat Robertson at the ’92 Republican Convention

-“Most of these feminists are radical, frustrated lesbians, many of them, and man-haters, and failures in their relationships with men, and who have declared war on the male gender.  The Biblical condemnation feminism has to do with its radical philosophy and goals.”  Jerry Falwell

-“Men in the pro-choice movement are either women trapped in men’s bodies or younger guys who are like camp followers looking for easy sex.”  Rep Bob Dornan (R-CA)

-“We can support our troops without supporting our president.”  Trent Lott in 1999 (and I agree with him … just included this one for fun)


-“I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America.   I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped (Sept. 11) happen.’”  Jerry Falwell
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Wakie
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« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2004, 08:27:08 pm »
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MARRIAGE
Once again, I repeat, as a Christian I believe that only God can form a marriage.  The state can confirm that two people are legally “married” and therefore entitled to the legal rights and responsibilities of such.  If you don’t understand the difference (and are a Christian) then I direct you to your priest/pastor/minister.

PARSING QUOTES
If you want an example of how Bush would parse quotes how about the “Global Test” quote.  Kerry clearly said “I will not surrender America’s right to pre-emptive action.”  Then a sentence or two later he said “but we must explain to the American people why we are going to war … it has to pass …” and he hesitated looking for a term to describe it “the global test”.  Now all YOUR said heard were those last 3 words.  Your side repeated it over and over and over.  Clearly though Kerry was saying that for America to take pre-emptive action we have to be able to explain why we are taking it to the American people.

STEEL AND THE WTO
You are really grabbing at straws.  The US Government is not a bunch of idiots.  We knew what was coming.  Bush certainly knew what was coming.  But it was worth a few campaign dollars to keep quiet about it.

SADDAM CHEMICAL WEAPONS
The link you requested … http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20911FA38590C7B8DDDA10894DA404482

SOCIAL CUTS BY CUTS
I stand by my statements.  Bush spends uncontrollably on defense and pays for it by cutting from domestic spending (including the Justice Dept) and borrowing from future generations.  I might be ok with this if there wasn’t such horrible accountability from the DoD.  I’ve said this over and over and over, it really is time for another Truman commission to reduce graft, corruption, and waste in the DoD.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 04:59:51 am by Wakie »Logged
Reignman
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« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2004, 02:46:55 am »
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this concession speech reminds me of this:

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2004/110304.asp
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Senate Prediction:
Score - 60
State Wins - 33/33
State Precentages - 27/33

12th Doctor
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« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2004, 04:22:34 am »
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Funny, I have avoided reading this thread all of this time, but finally caved for lack of options.  "Sad", would be the word I would use.  "Untruthful" would be another, as no where has it been shown to me that the majority of Americans agreed with Kerry.

I find it pathetic that you make the charge that "hate" caused peopel to vote for Bush against Kerry, when every piece of evidence that I can concieve of shows the exact opposite, that indeed, the side of hate was the side that voted for Kerry.

The "short bus" analogy just shows the high level of contempt that liberals have for "ordinary" people and for humanity in general.

do you guys know how to be happy?  How about just not be abnoxous assholes... Can you do that?  Ever wonder why people don't like you?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2004, 04:27:03 am by Senator-Elect Supersoulty »Logged

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« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2004, 04:51:00 am »
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-Dick Cheney very famously told Americans that if they don’t vote for him they would be attacked.

How is saying that hateful?  Did he say that "Kerry wants terrorists to attack America?  No.  He said that America would be safer with President Bush.  Based on past comments, especially during the debate in Minnesota back in Feb. Kerry clearly does not take Homeland Security seriously.  After being prompted several times, he refused to say that he would consider himself a War-time President".  Even Edwards jumped in a slammed him.

Quote
-On his tv show Rush Limbaugh very famously compared a then 13-y/o Chelsea Clinton to a dog.  (IMHO this was the ALL-TIME low in American politics.)

This remines me of the supposed "Anyone ever caught doing drugs should be locked away and the key thrown away.  Rush never said that one either, of course.

Quote
-“Mr. Clinton better watch out if he comes down here. He’d better have a bodyguard.”  Jesse Helms threatens the President of the United States

Its Jesse Helms for Christ's sake.  Besides, this isn't anymore of a threat than "How to Kill the President" or whatever that bullsh**t was.

Quote
-"Robert Black, the [Texas] state [Republican] party spokesman, called them [Log Cabin] a 'hate group' and compared them to the Ku Klux Klan." [This occurred after Log cabin Republicans (a gay republican group) tried to attend the Texas Republican State convention.] - NY Daily News 6/24/98

Yeah, Joe Shmo from down the street said something the other day.  I didn't care.


Quote
-There were Alan Keyes comments on homosexuality …
" 'Hitler and his supporters were Satanists and homosexuals.  That's just a true statement.'   He added, 'The notion that is involved in homosexuality, the unbridled sort of satisfaction of human passions' leads to 'totalitarianism,' 'Nazism,' and 'communism.' "

Conservatives disowned Alan Keyes long ago.


Quote
-Pat Robertson told his tv audience to pray that God kill off “liberal Supreme Court Judges”.

Another one of those things that never happened.

Quote
-"Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do."  Ann Coulter
I disagree.  Both Liberals and Islamic Terrorists hate America equally and mostly for the same reasons.

Quote
-Ross Perot (yeah I know he is technically an independent but technically so is Bill Maher) compares Bill Clinton to Hitler. http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a360f8d25189c.htm

Since when is Ross Perot conservative?

Quote
-Remember when Trent Lott told a room full of people that if America had elected Strom Thurmond (and his segregation platform) President “we wouldn’t have had all these problems over all these years”.

And Joe Biden was the only Senator who spoke at his funeral because Lotts comments were taken so far out of context.  This demostrates the hatred of the left way more than the right.

Quote
-“When you see a blonde with great tits and a great ass you say to yourself, ‘Hey she must be stupid or must have nothing else to offer’”  Arnold Schwarzenegger, July 2003 Esquire Magazine Interview … I included this to reinforce what a stand up guy Arnie is

I don't see this as relevant to the topic.  At anyrate, this is probably taken out of context.

Quote
-“You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing.  Nonsense.  I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.”  Pat Robertson, 700 Club, 1/14/91

I highly doubt this one.  He would loose millions of veiwers.

Quote
-“Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.”  Pat Robertson at the ’92 Republican Convention

-“Most of these feminists are radical, frustrated lesbians, many of them, and man-haters, and failures in their relationships with men, and who have declared war on the male gender.  The Biblical condemnation feminism has to do with its radical philosophy and goals.”  Jerry Falwell

This is true of most of the modern feminist movement.  It really isn't about equal rights anymore.


Quote
-“Men in the pro-choice movement are either women trapped in men’s bodies or younger guys who are like camp followers looking for easy sex.”  Rep Bob Dornan (R-CA)

Ha, this is true for most of them.

Quote
-“We can support our troops without supporting our president.”  Trent Lott in 1999 (and I agree with him … just included this one for fun)

Well, since Clinton went to war several times without the prior consent of congress.

Quote
-“I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America.   I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped (Sept. 11) happen.’”  Jerry Falwell

Another quote that has never been substanciated.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2004, 04:55:31 am »
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this concession speech reminds me of this:

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2004/110304.asp

I invite everyone to take a visit to this site so that everyone can see how ugly and hatefilled it is.  Please, be my guest.
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« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2004, 01:00:54 pm »
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Soulty, all of the things I listed WERE said/done.  I saw the episode of Limbaugh's show where he pulled the Chelsea Clinton thing.  It has been well documented.  But hey, live in denial if you want.

Second point, you belittle my listing a quote from the spokesman of the Texas state Republican party.  You compare it to "Joe Schmo down the street".  I'm sorry but I think the statements made by a party spokesman from one of our larger states is more relevant than statements made by Margaret Cho.  These quotes were listed in response to John Ford complaining about not having conservative alternatives to Wildcard's quotes (which included Margaret Cho and Jennifer Anniston quotes).

Third point, if conservatives disowned Alan Keyes a long time ago why did you run him for the Senate in Illinois?

Merry Christmas
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supersoulty
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« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2004, 05:21:00 pm »
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Soulty, all of the things I listed WERE said/done.  I saw the episode of Limbaugh's show where he pulled the Chelsea Clinton thing.  It has been well documented.  But hey, live in denial if you want.

Second point, you belittle my listing a quote from the spokesman of the Texas state Republican party.  You compare it to "Joe Schmo down the street".  I'm sorry but I think the statements made by a party spokesman from one of our larger states is more relevant than statements made by Margaret Cho.  These quotes were listed in response to John Ford complaining about not having conservative alternatives to Wildcard's quotes (which included Margaret Cho and Jennifer Anniston quotes).

Third point, if conservatives disowned Alan Keyes a long time ago why did you run him for the Senate in Illinois?

Merry Christmas

Whoever heard of the Republican Party spokesman from Texas?  Who ever heard f Howard Dean, Al Gore or Jennifer Aniston?  Big difference, wouldn't you say?

I certainly didn't run Keyes in Illinois, nor did anyone else from this forum or anybody else that I know and or have heard from for that matter.  Keyes acctually ran himself, it seems to me.
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Wakie
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« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2004, 06:34:19 pm »
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Soulty, all of the things I listed WERE said/done.  I saw the episode of Limbaugh's show where he pulled the Chelsea Clinton thing.  It has been well documented.  But hey, live in denial if you want.

Second point, you belittle my listing a quote from the spokesman of the Texas state Republican party.  You compare it to "Joe Schmo down the street".  I'm sorry but I think the statements made by a party spokesman from one of our larger states is more relevant than statements made by Margaret Cho.  These quotes were listed in response to John Ford complaining about not having conservative alternatives to Wildcard's quotes (which included Margaret Cho and Jennifer Anniston quotes).

Third point, if conservatives disowned Alan Keyes a long time ago why did you run him for the Senate in Illinois?

Merry Christmas

Whoever heard of the Republican Party spokesman from Texas?  Who ever heard f Howard Dean, Al Gore or Jennifer Aniston?  Big difference, wouldn't you say?

I certainly didn't run Keyes in Illinois, nor did anyone else from this forum or anybody else that I know and or have heard from for that matter.  Keyes acctually ran himself, it seems to me.

So ... according to you what Jennifer Anniston says is more important than what is more important than ... let's say Robert McCallum.  And Jennifer Anniston, a private citizen, is more reflective of a political party than someone whose job it is to speak for said party.  I'm sorry but that is backwards priorities.

And while you personally may not have run Alan Keyes, your party DID endorse him as its candidate.  See when I talk about what I disagree with the GOP about I'm not attacking you personally I'm just talking about what I view to be bad decisions by the GOP.
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