Is Nazism left-wing?

[Phony Moderate]

No.

[tpfkaw]

Yes.

[Frink]

No, and people who say it is only do so because they lack an understanding of it.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

We've been over this territory enough. The answer is an extremely loud 'no'.

[tpfkaw]

The way I see it, there are two ways of measuring if an ideology is "left-wing" or "right-wing."

The first is the simplest - right-wing ideologies support systems closer to laissez-faire economics, left-wing ideologies support greater redistribution of wealth and greater central planning.  Fascism and Naziism support total government control of the economy and a vastly expanded welfare state.  They are therefore clearly left-wing, if not far-left, in this regard.

The second is a more subjective one - "left" ideologies are generally futurist and disdainful of old social orders, "right" ideologies seek to defend traditional social orders against modern encroachment.  Fascism and Naziism advocate a literal "end to history" in which all "old" thinking, culture, and artifacts would be eliminated, and be replaced by modern "new" thinking.  The aristocracy would be overthrown and the "new man" would be king.  Symbols of modernism - planes, trains, automobiles, and the military, would form the focus of their ideology.  Hence the Nazi plans to bulldoze the entire historical district of Berlin and fill it with gigantic neoclassical monstrosities, and the Fascist plans to fill in the Venetian canals.  The Nazis even banned the use of Fraktur type in newpapers and encouraged the use of Futura.  They are therefore "left" on a cultural basis as well.

Which brings us to the horseshoe theory.

[angus]

We've been over this territory enough. The answer is an extremely loud 'no'.

True, but the thread yielded wormyguy's incisive analysis.  I'd have instinctively voted yes, since that's what we were all taught in school.  Over and over.  Say it with me class:  Nazis represent the extreme right and the Soviet represents the extreme left.  I can remember Mister Southerland saying that.  I can remember Miss Joost saying that.  And later, as a university student, I remember Doctor White saying that.  If something gets said often enough, it must be true.

But this is the political debate thread, and I've seen no successful rebuttal to Wormyguy's comments, and frankly I can't think of a really compelling one myself.  I'll give it a day or so, but if there's no good rebuttal I"m going to go with yes.

[Gustaf]

It's clear that Nazism had very little to do with the traditional right. It had very little to do with the traditional left either though.

From a more sociological view-point it was clearly more aligned with right-wing groups in German society, even though some workers voted for them too.

My opinion has always been that Nazism is a good example of the short-comings of the left-right spectrum as a tool to analyze politics.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If you don't understand that 'the Left' in Weimar Germany meant 'the two 'Marxist' parties (the SPD and the KPD), their subcultures (which were, especially in the case of the SPD, astonishingly well-developed. During the early years of the Depression the SPD actually ran alternative welfare systems in some of their strongholds such as Leipzig, to say nothing of all the clubs and societies. Even funerals, at least early on) and the 'Marxist' trade unions, and that the Nazi party explicitly defined itself against these parties, subcultures and trade unions, then you have no business expecting your opinions on Nazism to be taken at all seriously by anyone with more than a basic grasp of the subject.

This deep hostility to the Left was also reflected in Nazi policies when they took power. The SPD, the KPD and the unions were persecuted relentlessly, many of their leading members were imprisoned in camps and many were eventually murdered. Meanwhile, Nazi economic policies actually resulted in a decline in working class wages and living standards, workers had effectively no rights, and various large industrial concerns did extremely well out of the Nazis. IG Farben is the poster boy of the mutually beneficial relationship between Party and Business (literally; as their profits swelled, so to did donations to the NSDAP... and government contracts), but there were others.

Arguing that the Nazis were 'left-wing' is about as wrong as you can be about German history during the period once Holocaust denial is ruled out of bounds.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

It's clear that Nazism had very little to do with the traditional right. It had very little to do with the traditional left either though.

From a more sociological view-point it was clearly more aligned with right-wing groups in German society, even though some workers voted for them too.

My opinion has always been that Nazism is a good example of the short-comings of the left-right spectrum as a tool to analyze politics.

While the rest is somewhat true the bolded bit is complete nonsense. Since when were the Freikorps, the Stab-in-the-back myth, fanatical anti-socialism etc not part of the Post-Weimar right? Not to mention how Nazis actually achieved power in the end....

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Traditionally the way of dividing the left-right political spectrum was by attitudes towards some imaginary concept of ´the enlightenment´ and ´revolution´. With the right most anti-enlightment and counter revolutionary (Didn´t Goebbels say he wanted to a pre-1789 world or something similiar?). Laissez-faire never really entered into it (if it did than many of the executioners of Louis XIV would have been the right of the king....) until American discourse of the 1970s or so - where debate was really about welfarism and the Cold War.

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... Which makes Nazism an Extreme-right ideology. Remind me of the Nazi policy on Einstenian Physics, Psychoanalysis (modern at the time) and ´Modernist literature´ then we can talk typefaces. Also my quote from Goebbels comes to mind.

...And Fascism less so in Germany (though not insignificant there either) but certainly true in nearly every other European situation where it took power was strongly connected to Monarchism. Would you describe the coalition of Monarchist, Carlists, Falangists, Extreme Catholics and Nationalists that made up Franco´s coalition a ´modernist´one? If so, I suggest you try and find out what ´Carlism´ was.

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Fascism did have a lot of roots in Italian futurism and German Romanticism, but that indicates what...

Personally I don´t think fascism was ever really intellectually coherent enough to be defined as an ideology however I´m posting this again because of so I´m tired of this smear. It has literally been debunked a million times on this forum.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's clear that Nazism had very little to do with the traditional right. It had very little to do with the traditional left either though.

Apart from the bit where the traditional right acted as the Nazis junior coalition partner? Which is why the post-war German right grew out of the what had been the centre before the catastrophe*.

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Yeah, that's true. Though most published stuff on electoral patterns in the Weimar Republic is seriously flawed, based on dubious statistical models that fail to understand that towns and cities are internally diverse!

*Insert remark about ex-Nazis finding their way in the Adenauer-era CDU here.

[Associate Justice PiT]

The way I see it, there are two ways of measuring if an ideology is "left-wing" or "right-wing."

The first is the simplest - right-wing ideologies support systems closer to laissez-faire economics, left-wing ideologies support greater redistribution of wealth and greater central planning.  Fascism and Naziism support total government control of the economy and a vastly expanded welfare state.  They are therefore clearly left-wing, if not far-left, in this regard.

The second is a more subjective one - "left" ideologies are generally futurist and disdainful of old social orders, "right" ideologies seek to defend traditional social orders against modern encroachment.  Fascism and Naziism advocate a literal "end to history" in which all "old" thinking, culture, and artifacts would be eliminated, and be replaced by modern "new" thinking.  The aristocracy would be overthrown and the "new man" would be king.  Symbols of modernism - planes, trains, automobiles, and the military, would form the focus of their ideology.  Hence the Nazi plans to bulldoze the entire historical district of Berlin and fill it with gigantic neoclassical monstrosities, and the Fascist plans to fill in the Venetian canals.  The Nazis even banned the use of Fraktur type in newpapers and encouraged the use of Futura.  They are therefore "left" on a cultural basis as well.

Which brings us to the horseshoe theory.

     As Gully points out, the first definition really has no existence outside of the United States, & within the fairly recent history of the United States at that. Therefore, using it to describe the policies of the Nazis can only be described as nonsensical.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

No.

[feeblepizza]

Yes. Fascism has left-wing roots and we all know it.

[opebo]

Yes. Fascism has left-wing roots and we all know it.

No, it doesn't.  You really should embrace your ace-in-the-hole, not deny it.  It looks to be useful again soon.

[tpfkaw]

It's funny that the only member we have who is a real, no-holds-barred, genuine article bonafide fascist is the one who's accusing others of fascism.

[Sewer]

It's funny that the only member we have who is a real, no-holds-barred, genuine article bonafide fascist is the one who's accusing others of fascism.

Robert Stark is back?

[Frink]

It's funny that the only member we have who is a real, no-holds-barred, genuine article bonafide fascist is the one who's accusing others of fascism.

That sure as hell beats refuting any of the points Al or Gully made...

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Yes. Fascism has right-wing roots and we all know it.

Fixed.

[opebo]

It's funny that the only member we have who is a real, no-holds-barred, genuine article bonafide fascist is the one who's accusing others of fascism.

Do you mean me?  I'm a royalist.

[tpfkaw]

When the Bolsheviks took power in Russia, they promptly set to work purging all the Mensheviks and Socialist Revolutionaries.  Does that mean they aren't left-wing?  When either Maoists or Marxist-Leninists have taken power in countries, they always set to work almost immediately purging the slightly-different Communists, as would the Trotskyists if they ever got into power.  Are they not left-wing?  In most European countries, Socialist parties refuse to form coalitions with Communist parties.  Are they not left-wing?  Like all political movements, far-leftists have their own infighting, which they tend to resolve violently more often than other groups.  Because the Nazis persecuted some leftists who publicly opposed them (and they also persecuted rightists who publicly disagreed with them), does not mean that they were not left-wing themselves.

Furthermore, the decline in real wages for workers can be explained by three rather obvious factors:

a. Far-left nutcase economic policies tend to depress real wages.
b. There was a massive worldwide depression.
c. There was a war in which millions of tons of bombs were dropped on German factories.

Of course the Nazis had a tiny chosen elite that they rewarded with great wealth and influence.  So did the Soviets.  So is the case in every centrally-planned economy, and the more centrally-planned, the more that is the case.

It is true that "left" and "right" did not originally refer to what is now referred to as the economic left and right.  Hence my alternate definition.  But it is the terminology we use nowadays, and so we should refer to ideology with modern notation for consistency.

The Nazis did borrow quite a bit from social conservative ideology as well.  The fact remains, however, that their plan all along was to create a radically-redefined culture they viewed as diametrically opposed to the previous one.

Opebo is a fascist due to his support of nonsensical populism and made-up identity politics, worship of authority figures, and, most importantly, calling for his political opponents to be rounded up in camps and presumably killed.

Have I addressed every concern?

[opebo]

Of course the Nazis had a tiny chosen elite that they rewarded with great wealth and influence.  So did the Soviets.  So is the case in every centrally-planned economy, and the more centrally-planned, the more that is the case.

'A tiny chosen elite rewarded with great wealth and influence' - that is certainly the USA, wormyguy, as well as every other capitalist plutocracy.

Opebo is a fascist due to his support of nonsensical populism and made-up identity politics, worship of authority figures, and, most importantly, calling for his political opponents to be rounded up in camps and presumably killed.

What identity politics? What authority figures?  As for interning the teabags, I was only kidding, though I do think they are either class enemies or class traitors, and it is in the interests of the people to eliminate them.

[Sewer]

Bolshevik

When the Bolsheviks took power in Russia, they promptly set to work purging all the Mensheviks and Socialist Revolutionaries.  Does that mean they aren't left-wing?  When either Maoists or Marxist-Leninists have taken power in countries, they always set to work almost immediately purging the slightly-different Communists, as would the Trotskyists if they ever got into power.  Are they not left-wing?

Yes, they are not left-wing.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

People need to read about German history before they make retarded claims about Nazism.

[Earth]

Nazism was definitely not left wing.

Some really bright folks here read "Liberal Fascism" and now they're knowledgeable, yeah?

Have I addressed every concern?

You haven't refute a single thoughtful claim set against your silly argument. So, no.

It's clear that Nazism had very little to do with the traditional right. It had very little to do with the traditional left either though.

Considering the rabid exultation of a German 'character', hatred of communism, and extreme xenophobia it had everything to do with the right. Did everyone just up and miss the ethnic nationalism?

From a more sociological view-point it was clearly more aligned with right-wing groups in German society, even though some workers voted for them too.

Of course workers voted for them. It was a Populist movement.

My opinion has always been that Nazism is a good example of the short-comings of the left-right spectrum as a tool to analyze politics.

The left/right dichotomy explains it fairly well.

[Frink]

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I don't see it used like that by anyone besides libertarians with an extreme ideological agenda.