Is Nazism left-wing?

[Gustaf]

It's clear that Nazism had very little to do with the traditional right. It had very little to do with the traditional left either though.

From a more sociological view-point it was clearly more aligned with right-wing groups in German society, even though some workers voted for them too.

My opinion has always been that Nazism is a good example of the short-comings of the left-right spectrum as a tool to analyze politics.

[Gustaf]

A lot to respond to here:

Gully: I think you misunderstand me. You say "the Post-Weimar right" I said "traditional right" I don't think proving that Nazism belongs to the former refutes my point that it didn't belong to the latter. I could go into more detail but I'm not sure that it is necessary.

Al: yeah, the traditional right did follow the Nazis' lead. Again, I'm not convinced that it affects the point I was making - that they didn't belong to that traditional right but was a new entity. The reason while I added my bit about the how the voters tended to be voters of the right (and I could have mentioned Farben et al like you did in that context as well) was precisely to show that I'm aware of that part. When I say Nazism didn't belong to the traditional right, I don't mean in terms of interest or power politics, but ideologically and in style.

To put it in very crude terms: would Hitler have been a leading figure of the German right during Bismarck? I think not. He also would not have been a leading figure in any liberal movement either. In that sense, Nazism in temperament and ideology has very little to do with either conservatism or liberalism.

Earth: you make an excellent argument when you say the left/right dichotomy explains Nazism. I've no idea how to refute it. I also see that you've taken to quoting me out of context to smear me, which is also absolutely fascinating. Once you have something intellectually honest and logically consistent to add to the discussion, just let me know and I will respond to you.

Something I forgot to mention yesterday is of course that the key problem with Wormguy's argument is that the things he mention weren't cornerstones of Nazi ideology. Those were militarism, anti-semitism, racism and so on. These things certainly are not part of the traditional left in any way and is why I'd say no to the question in the thread title. To an extent you can say that they're similar to aspects of conservatism, but certainly not to liberal tradition.

My opinion is simply that Nazism contains too many tenets that are antithetical to core principles in the other traditional ideologies which makes it silly to group Nazism with any of them. Unless you take an extremely marxist perspective on politics. Which you may, but I don't, and it's a whole new debate, really.

Oh, and Opebo: royalist is the best codeword for fascist in human history. Just so you know.

[Gustaf]

I would add that I think there are two somewhat different debates going on here.

What Al and Gully seem to be arguing is that Nazism represented the right in post-Weimar Germany. That, I'd agree with and I think my first post indicates that. What I think me and Wormguy are discussing is a more global, long-term view of the right and left and whether Nazism fits nicely into any of them (I don't think it does, he seems to think that it does in the case of the left).

I'd say Franco's fascism has a much stronger case for being right than Hitler's national socialism for instance.

Or, let's put it this way: could Hitler have been a leading Tory politician in the UK in the 1930s? I very much doubt that.

[Gustaf]

could Hitler have been a leading Tory politician in the UK in the 1930s? I very much doubt that.

No - it was a far too exclusive club, the offspring of incestuous backwoods Lower Austrians would have been quite inacceptable. But he could have been if England had lost the war. Easily. Even as is, most of the leading Tories were rather taken by his government's record.
His politics are not the reason why he couldn't have been, his class is.

I know you think you did a gotcha here, but that was actually part of my reasoning.

[Gustaf]

Earth: you make an excellent argument when you say the left/right dichotomy explains Nazism. I've no idea how to refute it. I also see that you've taken to quoting me out of context to smear me, which is also absolutely fascinating. Once you have something intellectually honest and logically consistent to add to the discussion, just let me know and I will respond to you.

I see you're bitching like you always do, instead of addressing my post above. When you want to act like a big boy, the post will be there.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to refute. Going over your post:

1. I've never read Liberal Fascism.

2. I'm not Wormguy.

3. I mentioned the racism in my last post, I just did not think it was essential to the point I was making.

4. Doesn't seem to contradict me.

5. Merely an assertion.

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I don't see any argument you're advancing going against any of my arguments in a convincing way.

[Gustaf]

I'm really getting tired of you. You're a chore.

Once again, the strength of your arguments...leave me breathless.

[Gustaf]

I'm really getting tired of you. You're a chore.

Once again, the strength of your arguments...leave me breathless.

I'm just thankful I've never written, nor will ever write a sentence as utterly shallow, and meaningless as this:

It's clear that Nazism had very little to do with the traditional right. It had very little to do with the traditional left either though.

No it's not as if you're the author of those bolded gems or anything:

Nazism was definitely not left wing.

Some really bright folks here read "Liberal Fascism" and now they're knowledgeable, yeah?

Have I addressed every concern?

You haven't refute a single thoughtful claim set against your silly argument. So, no.

It's clear that Nazism had very little to do with the traditional right. It had very little to do with the traditional left either though.

Considering the rabid exultation of a German 'character', hatred of communism, and extreme xenophobia it had everything to do with the right. Did everyone just up and miss the ethnic nationalism?

From a more sociological view-point it was clearly more aligned with right-wing groups in German society, even though some workers voted for them too.

Of course workers voted for them. It was a Populist movement.

My opinion has always been that Nazism is a good example of the short-comings of the left-right spectrum as a tool to analyze politics.

The left/right dichotomy explains it fairly well.

You, Gustaf, I don't care to argue with. Everyone else gets my undivided attention. You're incapable of arguing.

I've provided plenty of reasons in this thread for why I hold my position and I could provide more. You still haven't said anything to back up your stand.

You seem to think that arguing consists of making condescending assertions and then following up with personal attacks. It isn't. If you want to participate in the adult discussion that me, Al, Lewis, Angus, Beet and Wormguy are having there is nothing preventing you from going beyond throwing around insults and empty assertions.

You might for instance explain how the left-right spectrum clearly and easily explains National Socialism.

[Gustaf]

Earth: I don't disagree much with your description of National Socialism in Germany, in fact I'd say much of it mirrors my thoughts on it exactly. What I don't see is how this description shows that it is right-winged. Before I respond I'd like to commend you on actually taking the effort to articulate your position here. I'm always ready to discuss if you are.

The liberal (or as Americans would say, libertarian) tradition of the right is very far removed from the ideas of racial superiority or nationalistic anti-globalization ideals that you (rightly, imo) ascribe to Nazism.

I sense that what you're arguing is more that Nazism is linked with conservatism. While I agree that there are similarities I'm not convinced that these similarities make Nazism right-winged just like I'm not convinced the similarities with socialism makes it left-winged. I believe that the foundation of traditional conservative thought, at least in Germany back in those days, were quite removed from what drove Nazism. Anti-semitism, for one thing, did not play the role in classic conservatism that it did in Nazism. Above all, the preservation of the social order and the general skepticism towards change and modernity prevalent in conservatism is rather contradicted by Nazism, which was new.

I appreciate aspects of your argument here - sure, Nazism isn't the same thing as the futurist movement in art. But I don't think you can deny that it is connected with such ideas? After all, Nazism was very much about building a new society removed from the old one, even if it provided something similar to some of the groups that had supported that old order.

That brings me to the point where I agree that the groups supporting Nazism were mostly right-wing. You seem to think that I'm making a big deal out of some of those supporters being workers, but I'm not.

What it comes down to for me is that while I see how you can argue that the nationalism is right-wing I can also see how you can argue that the anti-individualism or utopianism is left-wing. I don't see the one as distinctly more convincing than the other, and for me this highlights why the whole left-right dichotomy is misleading. There are different ideologies that have different attributes. Grouping them along a two-dimensional axis is largely fruitless, imo.

[Gustaf]

Hm. Basically, I don't really agree that right-wing = conservatism. I don't see how liberalism, in the more classical sense, would fit into the political spectrum then and given that it's the dominant ideology in the Western world that seems like a short-coming to me.

I see the connection between conservatism and Nazism but I don't think the radical, future-looking properties of National Socialism fits that nicely into traditional conservatism. Sociologically speaking, yes. The conservativeS in Germany embraced Nazism as a reaction to the events after WWI. In ideological terms, however, I think Nazism is essentially a different ideology from that of traditional conservatism. I guess you could call it an adaptation to the Weimar society but I'm wary of such re-definitions. National Socialism wasn't about preserving or defending something. It was a radical movement which wanted to change society in a dramatic fashion. Certain parts of this were about returning to older things but it was not essentially about returning to the good old days. That largely separates it from traditional European conservatism, in my opinion. It's a subjective evaluation though, obviously.

I know I'm not really adding much in the above but I don't know if there is much left to argue over there. You seem to think that the similarities are larger than the differences, I view it the other way, but it seems to be a difference in evaluation or perception rather than in ascertaining facts.

As regards left and right, I don't really see much use in it. Perhaps if you use it as a short-hand for more or less socialist, etc, but I don't really view it as a very useful tool for understanding ideology.

[Gustaf]

Sweden has a proud (well) eugenic tradition. Our state-run eugenic institute existed until the 70s, actually. We took that away about the same time as we decriminalized homosexuality and legalized abortion. All of which I think we did after the US (though not by much of a margin, of course).

I think it is odd that one would define right-wing as conservative. From a Swedish perspective that really makes no sense at all, since our right is mostly liberal rather than conservative.

[Gustaf]

Yeah, that mostly my reasoning too. As I said, I don't really like the terms left and right when it comes to discussing ideology anyway.