Lyndon Johnson vs. Barry Goldwater

[Ben.]

Nice sig States, there is no word available for how much i hate that woman!

[Bugs]

Hindsight only clears half the picture, because we still don't know what would have happned if Goldwater would have won.  Using hindsight, Johnson's civil rights record at least balances if not overcomes Vietnam.  Goldwater was scary, even without the exaggerations of the LBJ campaign.  With or without hindsight I have to go with the Democrat here.  LBJ.

What does 1968 look like if Goldwater is president?  The Republicans would almost certainly go with Goldwater.  Incumbants always get the nomination if they seek it, at least since the 19th century.  Teddy Roosevelt tried to take it from Taft; Ted Kennedy tried to take it from Carter.  Both failed.  The Democratic nomination would be wide open without a VP Humphrey. 

LBJ was a co-conspirator. He took down a sitting president to attain power. I'd vote for almost anyone over him.

I keep hearing about this.  I'm not convinced that it happened that way.  Perhaps you have a link to some web page that will explain it.  Then I'll be convinced. There are no lies on the internet.  LBJ probably colaborated with Lincoln. 

Sorry about the sarcasm.  Sometimes I get carried away.  Just ask my kids.  Seriously, I believe that it might have happened that way, but it would take a lot to convince me beyond any doubt.  Like most presidents LBJ had some good contributions and some bad ones.  Vietnam cost him 1968.  I don't think Goldwater would have had the civil rights contribution that Johnson did.

[Ben.]

Have to say that JFK died at the hands of a lone nut... that what really gets everyone that such a nobody could kill a such an important and substancial person... that said LBJ was scared silly that Castro had killed Kennedy and so rushed the inquest.... well that my opinion. 

[??????????]

Have to say that JFK died at the hands of a lone nut... that what really gets everyone that such a nobody could kill a such an important and substancial person... that said LBJ was scared silly that Castro had killed Kennedy and so rushed the inquest.... well that my opinion. 

What about JFKs links to fighting the mafia and heroine trade? He was warned not to stop heroine from being imported by the mob. Their is a lawyer down here in Tampa who discussed this with me. He was around at the time and defended one of the lower level thugs in the mafia from Chicago.

[Ben.]

Have to say that JFK died at the hands of a lone nut... that what really gets everyone that such a nobody could kill a such an important and substancial person... that said LBJ was scared silly that Castro had killed Kennedy and so rushed the inquest.... well that my opinion. 

What about JFKs links to fighting the mafia and heroine trade? He was warned not to stop heroine from being imported by the mob. Their is a lawyer down here in Tampa who discussed this with me. He was around at the time and defended one of the lower level thugs in the mafia from Chicago.

I still don't think there was a conspiracy as such, are you arguing that perhaps Kennedy assassination was a Mafia Hit? perhaps but i just don't buy it, Oswald had no links to the Mafia from what i remember so i find it hard to believe he was working on their behalf, instead Oswald was clearly looking to “make difference” he’d already tried to shoot a prominent segregationist and I’d argue that he then settled on trying to kill Kennedy and sadly he succeeded... but that’s just my take on it.

[??????????]

Have to say that JFK died at the hands of a lone nut... that what really gets everyone that such a nobody could kill a such an important and substancial person... that said LBJ was scared silly that Castro had killed Kennedy and so rushed the inquest.... well that my opinion. 

What about JFKs links to fighting the mafia and heroine trade? He was warned not to stop heroine from being imported by the mob. Their is a lawyer down here in Tampa who discussed this with me. He was around at the time and defended one of the lower level thugs in the mafia from Chicago.

I still don't think there was a conspiracy as such, are you arguing that perhaps Kennedy assassination was a Mafia Hit? perhaps but i just don't buy it, Oswald had no links to the Mafia from what i remember so i find it hard to believe he was working on their behalf, instead Oswald was clearly looking to “make difference” he’d already tried to shoot a prominent segregationist and I’d argue that he then settled on trying to kill Kennedy and sadly he succeeded... but that’s just my take on it.

Ok, so why would Ruby shoot him? Ruby had KNOWN links to the mafia.

[lidaker]

Hindsight only clears half the picture, because we still don't know what would have happned if Goldwater would have won.  Using hindsight, Johnson's civil rights record at least balances if not overcomes Vietnam.  Goldwater was scary, even without the exaggerations of the LBJ campaign.  With or without hindsight I have to go with the Democrat here.  LBJ.

What does 1968 look like if Goldwater is president?  The Republicans would almost certainly go with Goldwater.  Incumbants always get the nomination if they seek it, at least since the 19th century.  Teddy Roosevelt tried to take it from Taft; Ted Kennedy tried to take it from Carter.  Both failed.  The Democratic nomination would be wide open without a VP Humphrey. 

LBJ was a co-conspirator. He took down a sitting president to attain power. I'd vote for almost anyone over him.

Ultimate irony: people who attack historians for being revisionist in respect of LBJ, then in the next post claim he plotted to kill Kennedy.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

look at it this way: if me and StatesRights actually agree on something, it must be true.

[??????????]

Hindsight only clears half the picture, because we still don't know what would have happned if Goldwater would have won.  Using hindsight, Johnson's civil rights record at least balances if not overcomes Vietnam.  Goldwater was scary, even without the exaggerations of the LBJ campaign.  With or without hindsight I have to go with the Democrat here.  LBJ.

What does 1968 look like if Goldwater is president?  The Republicans would almost certainly go with Goldwater.  Incumbants always get the nomination if they seek it, at least since the 19th century.  Teddy Roosevelt tried to take it from Taft; Ted Kennedy tried to take it from Carter.  Both failed.  The Democratic nomination would be wide open without a VP Humphrey. 

LBJ was a co-conspirator. He took down a sitting president to attain power. I'd vote for almost anyone over him.

Ultimate irony: people who attack historians for being revisionist in respect of LBJ, then in the next post claim he plotted to kill Kennedy.

I can't say for sure whether he planned it or even plotted it. But I do know however he DID know it was going to happen. Even Nixon referred to the JFK murder in the tapes, "The Bay of Pigs thing" "we don't want that found out".

[A18]

So you think Nixon also knew it was going to happen?

[??????????]

So you think Nixon also knew it was going to happen?

I don't know.

[Bugs]

What makes it more complicated, and more interesting, is that there are so many conspiracy theories, many which contradict each other and cannot all be true, and new evidence keeps turning up.  Ruby's claim that he killed Oswald to spare Jackie the pain of a trial is a crock, and much of the Warren report is too.  Beyond that you have to deal with too many crooks to get much useful information. 

[Hitchabrut]

Johnson was almost as bad as Carter, and that's saying a lot. AuH20!

[??????????]

What makes it more complicated, and more interesting, is that there are so many conspiracy theories, many which contradict each other and cannot all be true, and new evidence keeps turning up.  Ruby's claim that he killed Oswald to spare Jackie the pain of a trial is a crock, and much of the Warren report is too.  Beyond that you have to deal with too many crooks to get much useful information. 

I could agree with the single shooter theory. But I believe its all thrown out the window with Ruby. It would make no sense why he would shoot him. All that is known is that Ruby was working for the mob and was already terminally ill with cancer.

[A18]

Why is Goldwater called AuH20?

[Ben.]

So you think Nixon also knew it was going to happen?

I don't know.

If Nixon knew it stands to reason he found out after he became POTUS... Nixon was embittered about 1960, but he was not a murderer.

As for Ruby. I just don’t know why he killed Oswald, I’m nearly certain Oswald acted alone, But why Ruby shot him I don’t know.

[??????????]

Why is Goldwater called AuH20?

Ever taken a science course? Au = Gold H2O = Water

[A18]

I knew H2O is water, but I didn't know that Au was gold. Though it does sound familiar now that you mention it.

[Bugs]

On the ballot in some states you had to write the name of your choice on a line.  Many people wrote AUH2O.  Four years later it was HHH which was done by writing four vertical lines and  a horiz line across them.  If I remember right there was some controversy over it in both elections. 

[Rob]

*Bump*

Goldwater, of course!

[dazzleman]

This is a very difficult choice.

At the time, I can't say for whom I would have voted.  Johnson suggested that Goldwater was a nut, but Johnson himself wasn't too steady.

I think Johnson's presidency was defined by three key issues - civil rights, Vietnam, and the Great Society.

On civil rights, he made a good start, and then went off track.  It should also be remembered that by the 1964 election, Johnson's greatest civil rights contribution - the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - was already behind him.  What followed was far less beneficial, and the implication of Johnson policies toward blacks - that blacks need preferences and unending government subsidization - haunt us to this day, and have made real organic progress on racial issues nearly impossible.

On Vietnam, Johnson made the worst possible choice between standing up to communist aggression, and folding.  He opted to fight an endless war without a plan for victory, rather than accept the communization of southeast Asia, or take the fight to the North Vietnamese.  He fought the war on the enemy's terms, and almost wholly within our allies' territory, which is almost always a serious mistake.

His Great Society was an unmitigated disaster in my opinion.  Unrealistic in its read on human nature, utopian in its mentality and scale, it had the effect of dangerously increasing the reach of government while making the problems that it sought to address more intractible.

Johnson is the president who spawned modern liberalism, and that is an ugly legacy indeed.

Having said all that, I still may have voted for him in 1964 because at that time, all this lay in the future.  While I have some reservations about Goldwater, it's hard to see how he could have turned out worse than LBJ unless he got us into a nuclear war with the Soviet Union, which I think is unlikely.  But we'll never know.

[skybridge]

In your guts you all know you're nuts!

[Rob]

Having said all that, I still may have voted for him in 1964 because at that time, all this lay in the future.  While I have some reservations about Goldwater, it's hard to see how he could have turned out worse than LBJ unless he got us into a nuclear war with the Soviet Union, which I think is unlikely.  But we'll never know.

Goldwater wouldn't have gotten into a nuclear war. That was an LBJ campaign ruse capitalizing on the fact that Goldwater had a penchant for gaffes. The character assassination that LBJ's campaign conducted was so successful that even today, some people still think that Goldwater was a racist nutcase who would have started World War 3.

It's actually rather disturbing- imagine what it would be like if peoples' opinion of Thomas Jefferson was shaped by Federalist campaign propaganda.

[No more McShame]

Bob's got an excellent point.  Goldwater was a great man who would have been one of our finest presidents.  I vote for him with or without the benefit of hindsight.

[PBrunsel]

Barry Goldwater over LBJ. I may go like NewFederalist and vote for E. Harold Munn (Pro.-MI) just for the heck of it.