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Author Topic: Atlasia v. Antonio V  (Read 6701 times)
Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2010, 05:08:12 am »
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Well then, if that's procedurally possible, I've no problem with that course of action.
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« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2010, 11:28:05 pm »
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For those seeking a resolution to this case, it is my opinion that the prosecution effectively withdrew from consideration its arguments, rendering the case pointless at best, and an ungrounded accusation of wrongdoing at worst.

Never was I or anyone else watching ever presented with evidence that the defendant pursued his course of action with decidedly malicious intent, with multiple opportunities given to answer this explicitly simply ignored, and as the central question relating to the application of this particular statute, it is difficult to entertain that the arguments presented by the plaintiff have much merit, or indeed warrant anyone's careful consideration.  I make no judgment as to the nature of Antonio's intentions in editing the Wiki: only failure to see any proof of malicious intent.
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Senator Libertas
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« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2010, 11:34:26 pm »
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I was pondering on this myself.

Do we necessarily need to go to jury if finding members is this difficult? I'm certainly fine going without one but it's really up to Antonio.

If I can choose, I'd like to be tried directly by Justice Ebowed. Hopefully this can make things faster.
But of course you do.

It's a bit tough to tell where the JCP ends and the Atlasian "justice" system begins.


If there even is any separation left between them at this point.



For those seeking a resolution to this case, it is my opinion that the prosecution effectively withdrew from consideration its arguments, rendering the case pointless at best, and an ungrounded accusation of wrongdoing at worst.

Never was I or anyone else watching ever presented with evidence that the defendant pursued his course of action with decidedly malicious intent, with multiple opportunities given to answer this explicitly simply ignored, and as the central question relating to the application of this particular statute, it is difficult to entertain that the arguments presented by the plaintiff have much merit, or indeed warrant anyone's careful consideration.  I make no judgment as to the nature of Antonio's intentions in editing the Wiki: only failure to see any proof of malicious intent.

I presented ample evidence to demonstrate that Antonio had malicious intent. Hell, the mere fact that he continued to do this after being asked to stop makes it malicious.

I put forth post after post of evidence and arguments, only to be ignored.
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« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2010, 04:27:16 am »
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So that means I'm finally acquitted ? It was high time. Smiley
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

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« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2010, 04:42:08 am »
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So that means I'm finally acquitted ? It was high time. Smiley

Because you've done such a wonderful defense of your actions here.

Oh wait, no defense was ever even provided, except claims by afleitch and Marokai that were both shown to be mistaken.


I sincerely hope that Justice Ebowed did not intend to give off what appears to be an incredibly shameless case of corruption.


And even now, Antonio shows not an ounce of remorse nor does he appear willing to offer a single apology for months of mean-spirited vandalism.
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Antonio V
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« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2010, 05:06:56 am »
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I'd apreciate if you could take your usual bickering out of the Court case thread.
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

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Pope Kalwejt I of Northeast
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« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2010, 07:25:15 am »
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Too bad the case, which could, regardless of verdict, be potentially major landmark one, turned that way.

Good at least Ebowed made ruling, instead of letting it die on 20 page.
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« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2010, 09:38:36 am »
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Wow is this what the Atlasian legal system has come to... no complete jury to actually judge the case, an attorney general who refuses to put forward the case and who doesn't appoint someone to do it for him. I'm not a fan of Libertas of any sorts, but this is quite an unfair handling of the case.

 
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2010, 08:13:19 pm »
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Wow is this what the Atlasian legal system has come to... no complete jury to actually judge the case, an attorney general who refuses to put forward the case and who doesn't appoint someone to do it for him. I'm not a fan of Libertas of any sorts, but this is quite an unfair handling of the case.

You should read a thread or two, dude. I offered to appoint anyone Libertas wanted to pursue the case for me. I was willing to let him completely control the case with my approval if he wanted to. He refused, and completely disappeared from everything revolving around this case. Like Ebowed said, he practically abandoned this thread entirely and just stopped even trying to argue, and refused to take anything on offer to keep the case going.

Also, I am under NO obligation to pursue ANY case that I don't want to. You do know that, don't you? I'm not your little legal puppet, I have my own mind and pursue cases on my own. Junkie said so and Ebowed said so, and I gave real-world examples for that sort of behavior when I brought up my offer to let Libertas have total control over this case.

This is on no one but Libertas for refusing to take any control in this case. If he really wanted this case to go on, he would've taken my offer and my stand-in could've demanded a jury. Libertas didn't do that because he would rather throw a fit than have this case go forward. He didn't want this case to be solved, he wanted a good scandal to scream about and shed his crocodile tears.

Take your fragile sensibilities elsewhere and read up on what actually happened.
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Pope Kalwejt I of Northeast
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« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2010, 08:18:50 pm »
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Also, I am under NO obligation to pursue ANY case that I don't want to.

I really wanted to abstain from incoming bitching fest but...

Well, I didn't really want to brought those charges as your predecessor, giving the fact Antonio is my oldest, along with Barnes, forum friend. Yet I did because those were my duties.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2010, 08:26:53 pm »
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Also, I am under NO obligation to pursue ANY case that I don't want to.

I really wanted to abstain from incoming bitching fest but...

Well, I didn't really want to brought those charges as your predecessor, giving the fact Antonio is my oldest, along with Barnes, forum friend. Yet I did because those were my duties.

And I completely disagreed with what you were doing. Quite frankly, you had no earthly clue how to handle legal affairs, and you were doing this only because Purple State told you to.

Some of your arguments were completely ridiculous, too:

Also, I have a firm beflief that intentions are not important here. The results are.

That is possibly the dumbest thing the ATTORNEY GENERAL could have ever said in a case that is quite literally all about intent. The entire case revolves around trying to prove intent, and you just casually say "well, intent doesn't matter at all." It does because the entire law is about intent. You completely mishandled this case from the beginning, and Libertas totally abandoned the case after I made him the offer of appointing anyone he wanted.

This was never a case about the law. You prosecuted Antonio because you were under order to and wanted to look like you were nonpartisan by going after a member of your own party and Libertas didn't care about the law, he only cared about trying to have as little to do with the case as possible, so he could bitch about the outcome even if he totally abandoned the arguments. This case was a personal and partisan circus.
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Pope Kalwejt I of Northeast
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« Reply #86 on: November 28, 2010, 08:35:26 pm »
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Thanks for saying I'm an idiot who conspired secretly with Libertas in order to make himself look bipartisian.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2010, 08:42:36 pm »
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Thanks for saying I'm an idiot who conspired secretly with Libertas in order to make himself look bipartisian.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insult you, I just got a little heated here, you know that I like you personally. I'm a little tired of being the scapegoat here taking the fall for every single person that pops in this thread. I was trying to make the best out of a crappy situation that I didn't feel you handled very well, and that Libertas abandoned. For that, I've been called biased, lazy, unwilling to do my job, partisan, etc, etc. I'm a little tired of it all.
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Pope Kalwejt I of Northeast
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« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2010, 08:47:54 pm »
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Thanks for saying I'm an idiot who conspired secretly with Libertas in order to make himself look bipartisian.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insult you, I just got a little heated here, you know that I like you personally. I'm a little tired of being the scapegoat here taking the fall for every single person that pops in this thread. I was trying to make the best out of a crappy situation that I didn't feel you handled very well, and that Libertas abandoned. For that, I've been called biased, lazy, unwilling to do my job, partisan, etc, etc. I'm a little tired of it all.

I agree I didn't handled this well. But what the hell was I supposed to say to Purple State? "F**k you, Mr. President, I'm not doing this"? I didn't appoint any special prosecutor for one reason: my tenure was coming to an end and you were a designate, so I assumed making such a decision, since you'll replace me within a days, wouldn't be good idea.

I regret this case ended this way. No, I'm not talking about verdict, I mean that it actually become, and all parts share responsibility, a joke. There's going to be a lot of bitching, a lot of divisions etc. etc.

But without me. In last month I already were a spacegoat few times. Enjoy yourself guys. I have better things to do than getting involved in yet another bitchfest.
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Senator Libertas
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« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2010, 10:35:46 pm »
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Too bad the case, which could, regardless of verdict, be potentially major landmark one, turned that way.

Good at least Ebowed made ruling, instead of letting it die on 20 page.

Yes, good thing Antonio got his friend Ebowed to show up and help out a fellow JCPer rather than assemble the jury the rest of us have been waiting for.

Ebowed's failure to even pretend to have considered the substantial amount of argument that already took place makes this an especially embarrassing case of corruption here in Soviet Atlasia.


So to review...

Antonio vandalizes the Wiki page of a rival party for months and mocks members of that party when asked to stop. Under the Purple State administration, Attorney General Kalwejt files charges against Antonio. The case is presented against Antonio. No defense is ever presented by Antonio. afleitch and Marokai attempt two arguments. afleitch says the color wasn't really emerald to begin with. This is debunked with numerous citations. Then Marokai claims that Antonio tried to talk to me but I never responded. This was also debunked with linked source.

Meanwhile we're waiting for a jury to be assembled, with a few jurors showing up here.

Fast forward a bit, Purple State is out, Fritz is in. AG Kalwejt, who actually does his job, is replaced by a mean-spirited, manipulative, and self-serving political appointee. Marokai Blue likes having the title "Attorney General" but refuses to actually do his job if it might affect a fellow red avatar JCPer.

And so the case seems to be going nowhere as we wait for a jury.

Then Antonio shows up for the first time saying he'd rather have his buddy Ebowed, a fellow JCPer, decide the case. This, instead of the jury the court is taking forever to assemble due to its own ineptitude. Marokai seconds this request, and without further ado, Ebowed says yeah, forget the jury, and he supposedly acquits Antonio while pretending that no arguments were ever put forth to address all of the issues he mentions. Antonio shows up with an arrogant smirk, about time, what took so long to acquit me, bro. The curtains drop on the stage, the end. Cue the applause.


This is a severe miscarriage of justice, and everyone involved in this kangaroo court ought to be ashamed.


But bravo, good show, everyone.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #90 on: November 29, 2010, 12:20:08 am »
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This is getting old. You had the opportunity to pursue this case with all force with my offer to appoint a special prosecutor in my place. I was under no obligation to do that, because I could've just done my best to derail the case and sit still, since I didn't believe in this case. I made it very clear to you during my confirmation hearing that I didn't believe the case, but, if you got in contact with me, we could work out something.

You refused. I brought it up to you multiple times on both Atlasia boards. I mentioned it to your party members. I practically screamed it at you everywhere you posted. You never acknowledged me anywhere I posted it because you didn't want this case to be prosecuted. You wanted to be right where you are now, bitching about a fake controversy you created by your own sloth.

It's amazing how you can act completely blindsided by everything and act as if everything is taking you with absolute astonishment. At any point in this case all you had to do was say "Marokai, appoint ____ in your place" and I would've done so. But everytime this case lurched forward you acted completely outraged. You've been more than well informed during this whole process and you said and did absolutely nothing but complained.

When PS and I were campaigning to be President, I mentioned several times the idea of giving the President and Vice President a Senate legislative slot for their own purposes. Everyone who paid attention to our campaign knew this. Everyone who talked to us knew this. Our more strident supporters knew this. But when it was mentioned here in one of the Senate threads, you acted like this was a big shocking secret I'd kept and I'd just whipped out after we got elected. It wasn't about the idea, it was about trying to stir up controversy and cause trouble for us, and try to pretend that there was something new and sinister that "just popped up."

You're doing the same garbage here. I've been in office for, like, three weeks, and since my confirmation hearing I offered you full control over this case. You ignored it. You then act stunned weeks later as if you never knew anything at all. I argued before I was appointed to be AG in defense of Antonio, yet the idea that I wouldn't go after Antonio myself came as some sort of big evil plot to you. You pretend not to pay any attention and then try to conjure up controversies, and it's about time you stop it. It's laughably transparent.

My arguments for Antonio were this simple: The law clearly references that "maliciously" editing the Wiki is illegal. Thus, "malice" needs to be proven. Antonio explained on a variety of times what he was doing and why he was doing it. He should stop editing that part of the wiki, absolutely, because what he was doing is obviously accomplishing nothing, but nothing in his perfectly reasonable explanations concerning party colors and wiki management demonstrate malice! Intent does matter, unlike my what predecessor may think of an intent based law.

If you wanted this case to go any differently, you had the power to change it by sending me a PM of one sentence. You refused to do so. You have no one to blame but yourself.

(And as for my "fairness" revolving around the law, you should get some stuff straight. As a Justice I was ruthless in my punishment of SewerSocialist and threw the near-maximum or maximum penalty at him and held him in contempt of court when he refused to appear before me. Who do you think Sewer usually votes for? I also ruled in agreement with Sam Spade that HAEV, the organization that Antonio created and proposed, was unconstitutional!)
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« Reply #91 on: November 29, 2010, 04:05:10 am »
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Yes, good thing Antonio got his friend Ebowed to show up and help out a fellow JCPer rather than assemble the jury the rest of us have been waiting for.

Ebowed's failure to even pretend to have considered the substantial amount of argument that already took place makes this an especially embarrassing case of corruption here in Soviet Atlasia.

Actually, I am only concerned in dealing with facts, and I have no affinity for Antonio V for being a member of the JCP any more than I do for Kalwejt.
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« Reply #92 on: November 29, 2010, 10:44:37 am »
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Wow is this what the Atlasian legal system has come to... no complete jury to actually judge the case, an attorney general who refuses to put forward the case and who doesn't appoint someone to do it for him. I'm not a fan of Libertas of any sorts, but this is quite an unfair handling of the case.


First off, in a criminal case its the defendant's right to chose whether to be tried by a jury or directly by the court (i.e. the judge). Antonio waiving that right is nothing new or scandalous either in Atlasia or RL.

Secondly, given the tiny, tiny world of Atlasian politics, every person tried has about a 50/50 shot of having their case heard by either an active (or at least semi-active) politico of their party, or an active politico of an opposing party. I never heard any critique of Ebowed being unable to fairly hear the case other than occasional carping "but he's part of the JCP machine" from the usual quarters. I heard no specific indication that Ebowed and Antonio were too personally close/antipathetic for this not to be a fair trial, and I see no reason not to doubt Ebowed not sua sponte (i.e. on the Court's own motion) recusing himself.

The only possible issue was the fact that Blue felt it was a weak case he inherited as new AG, and didn't present any evidence to speak of. That might be of concern except not only was he up front about his doubts in the case, but repeatedly offered to turn over the prosecution to Libertas or someone else.

The real issue here seems to be that if Libertas and other critics didn't take MB up on his repeated offers to take over the prosecution, what right do they have to complain now?
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« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2010, 03:31:53 pm »
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Yes, good thing Antonio got his friend Ebowed to show up and help out a fellow JCPer rather than assemble the jury the rest of us have been waiting for.

Ebowed's failure to even pretend to have considered the substantial amount of argument that already took place makes this an especially embarrassing case of corruption here in Soviet Atlasia.

Actually, I am only concerned in dealing with facts, and I have no affinity for Antonio V for being a member of the JCP any more than I do for Kalwejt.

Sorry judgie, ain't buyin it.

Nobody with functioning brain cells would fall for such lies either.


This case has been a wake up call to the people of Atlasia: the system cannot be trusted to administer justice.

You people conducted your little operation so sloppily as to make it impossible to draw any other conclusion. It's literally LOLworthy how blatant the corruption and phoniness of this sham trial was.

Unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats living off the government dole cannot be allowed to pervert justice so shamelessly. It is an insult to all the people of Atlasia.
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« Reply #94 on: November 29, 2010, 04:49:31 pm »
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I admire the talent you seem to possess in crafting wonderful paranoid prose in virtually any circumstance, and I am thoroughly amused at some of these accusations, but nonetheless, you are simply entertaining notions of an alternate reality, and I can only give you my word so many times that I am not actually some sort of Soviet bureaucrat who seeks to pervert the justice system in the name of power accumulation.  If you didn't accuse everyone else of nearly exactly the same thing, and with such tiring levels of frequency, perhaps we could take it seriously.  Instead, the boy who cried wolf has been something of a lost cause for quite some time, since no one goes to check on him anymore, but we can only assume we are dealing with a carcass.
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Pope Kalwejt I of Northeast
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« Reply #95 on: November 29, 2010, 05:51:41 pm »
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Libertas, you're really not helping your cause.

Just saying.
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Senator Libertas
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« Reply #96 on: November 29, 2010, 06:33:34 pm »
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Libertas, you're really not helping your cause.

Just saying.

My cause? My cause is justice, but justice will not be served as long as we have a corrupt machine running our court system.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #97 on: November 29, 2010, 06:48:32 pm »
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Ebowed did nothing wrong here (although shame on the Pacific for not having enough members that apparently are willing to serve on a Jury, that's simply a disgrace). You abandoned this case when you had the ability to have full control over the prosecution. No one, except people who have no idea how the court system works in the slightest, expects someone to prosecute a person if they don't believe in the case, especially if that person previously publicly argued in that same person's defense.

You can only blame yourself.
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« Reply #98 on: November 29, 2010, 08:07:34 pm »
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Libertas, you're really not helping your cause.

Just saying.

My cause? My cause is justice, but justice will not be served as long as we have a corrupt machine running our court system.

Senator, this STILL begs the obvious question: WHY after being repeatedly offered the chance to handle the prosecution did you fail to do so? IIRC the AG offered to give the prosecution over to an independent investigator multiple times, but no one--yourself included--stepped up.

I think justice behoves you answer that simple question before you bloviate again.
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« Reply #99 on: November 29, 2010, 09:16:46 pm »
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The Court did fail in this case.  They failed to assemble a jury, after what appeared to be a half-hearted attempt to form one.  Weeks were allowed to pass with no action.  It was not until I, as President, sent a PM to the Court asking that something be done, that a verdict was delivered.  I also made it clear that I held no opinion regarding what the verdict should be, merely that there should be one.
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