Atlasia v. Antonio V

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I really do hate to intrude in an ongoing legal case... But if that colour is not emerald, than Libertas is guilty of vandalizing the wiki as well, no?

Since people are intruding to make false claims, allow me to set the set the record straight here. 50C878 is not an "interpretation of emerald'". It IS emerald.

50C878 is the hex code given for Emerald on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_of_green#Emerald


Do a Google search for 50C878. The first result that comes up:

http://www.colourlovers.com/color/50C878/Emerald

It's Emerald. "Paris Green" is just another name for Emerald.


http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/overview/emerald.html

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[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I really do hate to intrude in an ongoing legal case... But if that colour is not emerald, than Libertas is guilty of vandalizing the wiki as well, no?

Since people are intruding to make false claims, allow me to set the set the record straight here. 50C878 is not an "interpretation of emerald'". It IS emerald.

50C878 is the hex code given for Emerald on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_of_green#Emerald


Do a Google search for 50C878. The first result that comes up:

http://www.colourlovers.com/color/50C878/Emerald

It's Emerald. "Paris Green" is just another name for Emerald.


http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/overview/emerald.html

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Paris Green is the name given to the chemically produced colour 'Pigment Green 21' which has been 'coverted' into 50C878. Despite what it is named (and you also point out the various names given to that colour) it will always remain a derivative of copper.

It is by no means the definative 'emerald'

There is also; 2C8139 - Emerald Green, for example.

C'mon you're really splitting hairs here. The fact that it was derived from copper means absolutely nothing. "Emerald" is simply an alternative name given to that color. The color adopted by our party was plain old Emerald, as found on Wikipedia under "Variations of Green", not any other varied shade of it. Paris Green = Emerald

It was not Antonio's prerogative to decide to change our party's color even to a different variance of emerald, especially after he was asked to stop by members of our party.

But that is all irrelevant. Antonio didn't even change it to something that could possibly be considered emerald. He changed it to an unnamed shade of blue, 00CCCB, described as "strong cyan". It's vandalism.

There's really no valid defense for Antonio's actions.


If I kept changing the JCP's color repeatedly, even after being asked to stop by members of their party, the excuse that I was "re-interpreting" their color for them would be laughed at as the joke that it is.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Honorable Justices,

Since I have been granted wiki access, more than one year ago, I think my committment to the quality of the wiki has been proven plenty of times. A quick look to my contributions would be enough to demonstrate it. But if you are not convinced, you could also have a look at what the page "Senate History" was before I started to work on it and what it has become when the work was finished. A fair number of election pages were updated or even created by me. I regularly update the page of parties and that of regions. If you still aren't convinced, have a look at my own page, which I almost entirely did.

Every single edit I have made on the wiki, honorable Justices, had one single intent : improving its quality, by making it more complete, more clear, or better looking. My modification of the Populares' color is not an exception. The edit for which I am incriminated wasn't more "malicious" than any other of my edits. The Supreme Court has the right to state that the Populares color is "legitimate content" and must not be edited. If the court rules so, despite my personal disagreement, I will accept the verdict and cease to edit the wiki page. But prior to a court's decision, the "legitimacy" of the Populares' color isn't established, and thus my edit isn't reprehensible.

Whatever will be your decision, I will accept it with the serenity of an innocent man. I have the certitude to have always done what is right for Atlasia, and I will keep doing what I consider to be the right thing.

It became malicious when you were repeatedly asked to stop and went ahead and did it anyway.

In fact, in one of your edits, after I said to stop it, you included a mocking wink.

Anyone can go to the history page and scroll down to 10:10, 24 October 2010, where Antonio included a wink smilie in his edit after I told him to go away from our page: https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php?title=Template:Atlasian_Political_Party/party_colors/POP&action=history




Clearly you knew what you were doing was mischievous and malicious.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Um, I responded to Antonio V on his own page...what did you think he was responding to with those messages?



It's amazing the dishonesty and twisting of facts that is going on here in an attempt to defend the indefensible.

Antonio V was asked repeatedly to stop vandalizing our party's page. He refused, and apparently thought he was being funny trying to annoy me by forcing me to check and fix my party's Wiki page every day. Even if he thought he had a valid reason the first time, he clearly carried on with a Wiki edit war- after being asked to stop multiple times- with intent to cause mischief.


If there shoe were on the other foot, there's no way in hell the JCP would have ever put up with the nonsense I've been dealing with since July. If a POPer was going to the JCP page and editing the JCP color every day, I highly doubt bgwah would have been as patient as I have been, giving Antonio the benefit of the doubt for five months hoping he would stop before finally out of desperation bringing it to the attention of law enforcement.

And no JCPer would have excused me for repeatedly vandalizing their page just because I claimed to have a valid reason for it.


But instead of an apology, I'm being made subject to lies and excuses so bad that they are genuinely insulting.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

You have yet to prove how anything he did here is actively malicious. He listed his reasons rather clearly. Someone trying to cause chaos doesn't explain their reasons perfectly rationally. "Malicious" is not at all present in his actions. Maybe he was wrong to keep editing them, and maybe he should be prevented from editing party colors in the future. However, there was no malice here that I see and I believe people will be smart enough to see that.

Repeatedly editing the article of an opposing party after being asked to stop by said party is in and of itself malicious. He might have thought he was right the 1st time, but there was no excuse for the other 12 times.

His little wink he left there only made it all the more apparent that it had become a game to him to try to cause grief for me.

But whatever, he's a JCPer, red avatar, social democrat, so you people will defend him no matter how clearly he was in the wrong here.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

4 - I also present that a party has no business and no right to chose it's own colour. As evidence I present this: http://www.democrats.org/ this: http://www.gop.com/index.php/ and this: https://uselectionatlas.org/ that clearly shows that parties do not get the chose their own colours, and since we do not have said right enshrined in law, we should rely on this precedent.

What do links to the Democrats and GOP websites have to do with Atlasia?

Parties have no business choosing our own colors? Of course parties have the right to choose their own colors. It's part of the fun. You know, name, logo, slogan, motto, platform, colors; it's what gives a virtual party an identity.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Of course parties have the right to choose their own colors. It's part of the fun. You know, name, logo, slogan, motto, platform, colors; it's what gives a virtual party an identity.

I am absolutely inclined to agree with you that parties have a moral right to choose their own color and other related efforts to control their cosmetic representation on the Wiki or on the forum.  I am also sympathetic to your claim of suffering continual harassment, or the perception thereof.  I am curious as to whether you made any attempt on the forum to address the issue publicly?  Opening this thread was the first I had heard of this series of events, and I am wondering whether non-legal avenues of persuasion were tried first.  I am minded to believe that a potential response from the defendant to such a public opinion piece would provide serious insight as to what motivation possessed him to repeatedly make these Wiki edits.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned the situation a few times on the forum during Populares conventions, but my dialogue with Antonio V has been limited to what was said on the Wiki. I attempted to persuade him by pointing out that emerald was our official color as voted on at our convention, to no avail.

Whether he had good intentions at first or not, somewhere between July 18 and October 29 it became clear that this was just a game for him. He wanted to "win" the Wiki edit war that he started.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I'm certainly not going to argue a case that I don't support.

If someone wants this case to proceed then find me someone who's interested in arguing the case on the government's behalf.

Unless of course everyone involved in this case just wants it to go straight to the jury from here, in which case I'll just stand here and look pretty in the meantime while everyone else deliberates, but if it's a guilty verdict and Antonio appeals, don't expect me to participate in the case a second time.

This case was brought against Antonio V by your own administration, in which you had served as VP. It's not like this was some partisan witch hunt started by an opposing party administration. There's really no justification for dropping this case. Rather, there is a clear basis for charging the defendant here with criminal misconduct; this was recognized as such by members of both the Purple State and Fritz administrations, under which you've served.

Are you really going to be so shamelessly partisan and biased in your role so as to blatantly refuse to prosecute Antonio V? Why did you become AG if you're not going to enforce the laws of Atlasia? You're supposed to disregard your own personal beliefs and instead give your all into arguing on behalf of the Atlasian government and its laws. It's part of the job description.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Marokai, I don't feel it's right for you to say, as AG, "ok, find me someone to prosecute or I'll quit". Libertas is the one who brought a complain, not a member of prosecution team. And you're a head of the prosecution stuff.

Ok, I'll fully understand if you'd want to excuse yourself because you argued in Antonio favor before becoming AG. That's a perfectly valid argument. But as AG, you really shouldn't drop or let the case die. Want to excuse yourself, appoint an impartian special prosecutor.

Dude, what about this are you not understanding? I think the case is complete and utter BS and I've personally argued against it before I even took this office. It's perfectly within my rights to back out of this case.

Why is it "complete and utter BS"? Oh, that's right. The defendant Antonio is your JCP buddy, whereas the victims are the evil Populares, including myself. We don't deserve justice.

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Do you honestly believe this BS, or are you just shamelessly spouting off nonsense that you know to be false? YOU are the weakest link in the Atlasian justice system right now. If you really cared about justice, you would have either gone ahead with this case, or else resigned out of principle. You shouldn't have ever even agreed to become AG if you can't be impartial enough to do your job.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Marokai, I don't feel it's right for you to say, as AG, "ok, find me someone to prosecute or I'll quit". Libertas is the one who brought a complain, not a member of prosecution team. And you're a head of the prosecution stuff.

Ok, I'll fully understand if you'd want to excuse yourself because you argued in Antonio favor before becoming AG. That's a perfectly valid argument. But as AG, you really shouldn't drop or let the case die. Want to excuse yourself, appoint an impartian special prosecutor.

Dude, what about this are you not understanding? I think the case is complete and utter BS and I've personally argued against it before I even took this office. It's perfectly within my rights to back out of this case.

Why is it "complete and utter BS"? Oh, that's right. The defendant Antonio is your JCP buddy, whereas the victims are the evil Populares, including myself. We don't deserve justice.

The law says "maliciously editing" is against the law. I don't believe there was any "malicious" intent on behalf of Antonio and also believe you've failed to prove that intent exists. I have reasons why I believe this case is a waste of the court's time, none of them have anything to do with my friendship with Antonio.

Marokai, stop insulting everyone here with these incredibly transparent lies. It's offensive to be so shamelessly lied to.

This has nothing to do with any sort of principled objection to prosecuting the crime that was committed and everything to do with the particular people who were involved on each side.

You and I both know that if the situation were reversed, you'd be singing a different tune.

If mean old Libertas were relentlessly vandalizing the JCP Wiki page and poor Antonio had to sign on every day for four months just to undo the damage, there's no way in hell you would let me get away with it. In fact, it wouldn't last four months because you'd have brought charges the first time the vandalism happened.

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If you didn't have time to perform the roles of the Attorney General, then you shouldn't have taken the job.

But I know you are so busy with work and school in real life, so I realize it is a great imposition to ask you for five minutes to actually do the job you agreed to do when you became Attorney General.

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The Wiki belongs to all of the people of Atlasia. Vandalizing the Wiki is a crime against all Atlasians; it is not just part of some "personal squabble" between Antonio and myself.


But by your logic, I'd be okay vandalizing the JCP page as long as I left messages on bgwah's page telling him why I felt I was justified in altering his party's page. And even if he asked me multiple times to stop the vandalism, I could keep on doing it...and it still wouldn't be 'malicious' according to the precedent you wish to set.

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Lawyers do it all the time. Attorneys General certainly do. It's not up to you to decide a law isn't worthy of enforcement.

You're unfit for this job.

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That's not even remotely comparable. A judge should recuse himself from a case if he can't make an impartial judgment. You're an Attorney General; your job is simply to put forth the best case possible on behalf of Atlasian law whether you agree with it or not. There is no judgment to be made on your part.

When you learn the art of rhetoric and debating, you learn how to do it from both sides. If you can't look at an issue from any perspective except your own narrow one, then, again, this isn't the job for you.
 

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I was pondering on this myself.

Do we necessarily need to go to jury if finding members is this difficult? I'm certainly fine going without one but it's really up to Antonio.

If I can choose, I'd like to be tried directly by Justice Ebowed. Hopefully this can make things faster.

But of course you do.

It's a bit tough to tell where the JCP ends and the Atlasian "justice" system begins.


If there even is any separation left between them at this point.

For those seeking a resolution to this case, it is my opinion that the prosecution effectively withdrew from consideration its arguments, rendering the case pointless at best, and an ungrounded accusation of wrongdoing at worst.

Never was I or anyone else watching ever presented with evidence that the defendant pursued his course of action with decidedly malicious intent, with multiple opportunities given to answer this explicitly simply ignored, and as the central question relating to the application of this particular statute, it is difficult to entertain that the arguments presented by the plaintiff have much merit, or indeed warrant anyone's careful consideration.  I make no judgment as to the nature of Antonio's intentions in editing the Wiki: only failure to see any proof of malicious intent.

I presented ample evidence to demonstrate that Antonio had malicious intent. Hell, the mere fact that he continued to do this after being asked to stop makes it malicious.

I put forth post after post of evidence and arguments, only to be ignored.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

So that means I'm finally acquitted ? It was high time.

Because you've done such a wonderful defense of your actions here.

Oh wait, no defense was ever even provided, except claims by afleitch and Marokai that were both shown to be mistaken.


I sincerely hope that Justice Ebowed did not intend to give off what appears to be an incredibly shameless case of corruption.


And even now, Antonio shows not an ounce of remorse nor does he appear willing to offer a single apology for months of mean-spirited vandalism.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Too bad the case, which could, regardless of verdict, be potentially major landmark one, turned that way.

Good at least Ebowed made ruling, instead of letting it die on 20 page.

Yes, good thing Antonio got his friend Ebowed to show up and help out a fellow JCPer rather than assemble the jury the rest of us have been waiting for.

Ebowed's failure to even pretend to have considered the substantial amount of argument that already took place makes this an especially embarrassing case of corruption here in Soviet Atlasia.


So to review...

Antonio vandalizes the Wiki page of a rival party for months and mocks members of that party when asked to stop. Under the Purple State administration, Attorney General Kalwejt files charges against Antonio. The case is presented against Antonio. No defense is ever presented by Antonio. afleitch and Marokai attempt two arguments. afleitch says the color wasn't really emerald to begin with. This is debunked with numerous citations. Then Marokai claims that Antonio tried to talk to me but I never responded. This was also debunked with linked source.

Meanwhile we're waiting for a jury to be assembled, with a few jurors showing up here.

Fast forward a bit, Purple State is out, Fritz is in. AG Kalwejt, who actually does his job, is replaced by a mean-spirited, manipulative, and self-serving political appointee. Marokai Blue likes having the title "Attorney General" but refuses to actually do his job if it might affect a fellow red avatar JCPer.

And so the case seems to be going nowhere as we wait for a jury.

Then Antonio shows up for the first time saying he'd rather have his buddy Ebowed, a fellow JCPer, decide the case. This, instead of the jury the court is taking forever to assemble due to its own ineptitude. Marokai seconds this request, and without further ado, Ebowed says yeah, forget the jury, and he supposedly acquits Antonio while pretending that no arguments were ever put forth to address all of the issues he mentions. Antonio shows up with an arrogant smirk, about time, what took so long to acquit me, bro. The curtains drop on the stage, the end. Cue the applause.


This is a severe miscarriage of justice, and everyone involved in this kangaroo court ought to be ashamed.


But bravo, good show, everyone.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Yes, good thing Antonio got his friend Ebowed to show up and help out a fellow JCPer rather than assemble the jury the rest of us have been waiting for.

Ebowed's failure to even pretend to have considered the substantial amount of argument that already took place makes this an especially embarrassing case of corruption here in Soviet Atlasia.

Actually, I am only concerned in dealing with facts, and I have no affinity for Antonio V for being a member of the JCP any more than I do for Kalwejt.

Sorry judgie, ain't buyin it.

Nobody with functioning brain cells would fall for such lies either.


This case has been a wake up call to the people of Atlasia: the system cannot be trusted to administer justice.

You people conducted your little operation so sloppily as to make it impossible to draw any other conclusion. It's literally LOLworthy how blatant the corruption and phoniness of this sham trial was.

Unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats living off the government dole cannot be allowed to pervert justice so shamelessly. It is an insult to all the people of Atlasia.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Libertas, you're really not helping your cause.

Just saying.

My cause? My cause is justice, but justice will not be served as long as we have a corrupt machine running our court system.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Can someone confirm I'm free to talk on that issue now?
The trial is ended?

Yes, you were just invited here to act as an extra on the set.

After the illusion was created that the court was actually going to assemble a real jury, your services were no longer needed. Judgie-wudgie had the final act written since before the show even began.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I hate you

Aw, what a nice thing to say. For my part, I hardly even know who you are to come up with such strong emotions in response.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I hate you

Aw, what a nice thing to say. For my part, I hardly even know who you are to come up with such strong emotions in response.

Well, I read much, but I seldom post.
Calling Obama or the Democrats fascists or calling names people I like is a good way to make me feel like that.

You know, you could be a little bit more respectful of your opponents and all would go well.

Respect.
Not name-calling.
No insults.
Only debate and respect, please.

I don't call people names. Where did I do this? "Fascist" is a political ideological label, not an example of name-calling.

Can someone confirm I'm free to talk on that issue now?
The trial is ended?

Yes, you were just invited here to act as an extra on the set.

After the illusion was created that the court was actually going to assemble a real jury, your services were no longer needed. Judgie-wudgie had the final act written since before the show even began.

Why didn't you ever ask for somebody to be appointed to continue the trial, as Marokai suggested?  (Yes, I know this question will go unanswered by Libertas, but I figured I should at least try...)

I can't do the Attorney General's job. Who the frig was I going to appoint?

That was a ridiculous cheap and lazy cop-out on the AG's part.

Not to mention that I'm not sure what was even left to argue. Kalwejt and I put forth the case and addressed numerous arguments. Antonio put up essentially no defense. We didn't need some special prosecutor to be appointed to do Marokai's job for him. What we needed was a jury to be assembled, but apparently the JCP was afraid that a real jury might rule against them.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Libertas, I respectfuly disagree with you.  A prosecutor can only ethically do their job when they believe that the defendant has done a crime AND that they can prove it.  Blue did not believe in either of those conditions.  Thus he did the right thing.  He offered to appoint a special prosecutor, also the right thing.  This has happened a few times, even in front of the Supreme Court.

My favorite example of this is the case of the Hillside Strangler(s).  The DA of LA brought charges.  After some time, the DA believed that he could no longer prove the case and moved to dismiss.  The Judge disagreed and refused to dismiss (within the right of the judge -- at least in Wisconsin and obviously California).  The DA, not believing that the case could be ethically prosecuted, brought in the California AG, who felt differently, actually did some real good work, and successfully prosecuted the case.

Interesting side note -- the DA who started the case was elected AG, so when the case ended it was back in his office.  More interesting, the Judge became DA.

The point of all this is a special prosecutor could have brought in.  Blue gave you the option of naming one.  Dallasfan, Han, would have been great to name just two I am sure you would have liked.  I am sure there would have been others that would have been willing to take a look at the evidence and then determine if they could proceed based on those two conditions.

This is the only way the Justice system works.  You may not like it in this case, but trust me, it is much better than having prosecutors that blindly prosecute people they do not believe committed crimes.

That was not the main issue here, despite Marokai's attempt to distract attention with it.

The real issue is that the attorney general, the judge, and the defendant were all in bed together.