Red State Stereotype
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TX_1824
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« on: November 16, 2004, 01:07:50 AM »

Am I a red stater? I voted for Bush, so I must be. However, I keep hearing all these stereotypes regarding those in red states who voted for Bush. They usually consist of:

Religious Jesus nuts, uneducated, homophobes, hicks, inbred rednecks and so on.

My question is how do I fit this stereotype?
First, I am a first generation American who lives in Texas and I am a Jew. We vote overwhemingly for democrats. My father is a holocaust survivor form Poznan, Poland and I am originally from Bronx, NY. I received my undergrad degree from Brown University in Economics with concentrations in International Relations. I live in Austin, TX and I'm currently working on my MBA at The University of Texas. Both schools are very liberal schools and Austin is a liberal town. Here I have met my wife and here is where I would like to spend the rest of my life.
Personally, I don't care about gay marriage. Abortion for me is a touchy topic. I despise it, but I don't believe that government has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body.
I was first eligible to vote in 1976 and I voted for Carter.
I voted for Reagan in 1980 and 1984.
I voted for Bush in 1988 and Clinton in 1996.
I voted for Bush in 2000 and Bush in 2004.
The main reason I didn't vote for Kerry was because he appears to be very friendly with the U.N. and Western Europe. Both seem to be anti-semitic and that scares me. Chirac is a good example. In France and Germany swastikas were spray painted on Jewish headstones in Jewish cemeteries and neither country appeared to be in a hurry to put an end to it. So I'm not impressed with receiving support and "permission" from the U.N. our our "allies". That was one of the main reasons I voted for Bush.

So other then voting Bush, how am I a "red stater"?
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dazzleman
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2004, 07:17:06 AM »

Liberals have been using the stereotype of the "red state voter" to discredit Bush and delegitimize his victory.

It's similar in a way to when Republicans used the murder rates of counties that voted for Gore, versus counties that voted for Bush, in 2000, to discredit Gore voters.  But of course, that didn't receive the play in the media that this outburst of bigotry against "red state voters" has.

I voted for Bush, and I don't even live in a "red" state.  I am not an "evangelical Christian" (whatever that means).  However, I am a Christian and believe in traditional Judeo-Christian values.  But that's not even the main reason I voted for Bush.  I have never voted for other than the Republican candidate for president since 1980, and my reasons have always been pretty consistent.

1. National security - Since the 1960s, Democrats have seemed indifferent, even hostile, to national security concerns.  It seems they are more concerned about not offending our enemies than preserving our security.  OTOH, Republicans have been in the forefront of rebuilding and maintaining our military, and taking the action necessary to preserve our security.

2. Crime/Personal Responsibility - In general, the Democrats exude an attitude of disdain for personal responsiblity.  When somebody does something wrong, they seem to blame everybody and everything except the actual person who did it.  There has been a tendency to make perpetrators into victims, and vice versa.  Democrats seem to believe in rights with no responsibilities.  Their open-ended welfare policies, which encouraged young unmarried women to have children at the public expense, were a perfect example of this.

3. Interest Groups - I have a strong dislike for many of the interest groups that form the base of the Democratic Party.  I think that the "civil rights" groups, rather than promoting black advancement, have become a form of organized crime, and that the "women's groups" are largely a collection of man-hating feminazis who seek to impose active discrimination against men.  Trial lawyers are an abomination, and a symbol of an out-of-control legal system that has the potential to ruin our business climate and severely damage our economy.

4.  Social Issues - While I am not an "evangelical Christian," I find the active hostility toward any type of Christianity that I see emerging in the Democratic Party to be very alarming.  I think one of the most dangerous trends, heading toward a potential constitutional crisis, is the trend toward judicial activism.  The judiciary has stepped over the line of its authority in my opinion, and must be reined in, and liberal groups favor judicial activism because it allows them to use, in effect, black-robed dictators to impose unpopular change on society that they favor.  I favor traditional values in general; I don't, for example, believe that raising a child as a single parent is a "choice" that is equal to raising a child within a stable marriage.  All indicators point to inferior results from this type of child-rearing, and there's no point in pretending otherwise to advance a highly dubious political agenda.

The reality is that the "elites" who are denigrating "red state voters" as extremists are the extremists themselves.  And their hypocritical bigotry has shown through beautifully in the wake of this election.
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Nym90
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2004, 10:58:49 AM »

an "evangelical Christian" (whatever that means)

Here are the definitions of evangelical...

adj.
Of, relating to, or in accordance with the Christian gospel, especially one of the four gospel books of the New Testament.
Evangelical Of, relating to, or being a Protestant church that founds its teaching on the gospel.
Evangelical Of, relating to, or being a Christian church believing in the sole authority and inerrancy of the Bible, in salvation only through regeneration, and in a spiritually transformed personal life.
Evangelical
Of or relating to the Lutheran churches in Germany and Switzerland.
Of or relating to all Protestant churches in Germany.
Of or relating to the group in the Church of England that stresses personal conversion and salvation by faith.
Characterized by ardent or crusading enthusiasm; zealous: an evangelical liberal.

n.
Evangelical A member of an evangelical church or party.
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dazzleman
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2004, 11:00:04 AM »

an "evangelical Christian" (whatever that means)

Here are the definitions of evangelical...

adj.
Of, relating to, or in accordance with the Christian gospel, especially one of the four gospel books of the New Testament.
Evangelical Of, relating to, or being a Protestant church that founds its teaching on the gospel.
Evangelical Of, relating to, or being a Christian church believing in the sole authority and inerrancy of the Bible, in salvation only through regeneration, and in a spiritually transformed personal life.
Evangelical
Of or relating to the Lutheran churches in Germany and Switzerland.
Of or relating to all Protestant churches in Germany.
Of or relating to the group in the Church of England that stresses personal conversion and salvation by faith.
Characterized by ardent or crusading enthusiasm; zealous: an evangelical liberal.

n.
Evangelical A member of an evangelical church or party.

Thanks for the definition, though I'm not sure the political definition matches the one in the dictionary.
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elcorazon
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2004, 11:13:08 AM »

any attempts to "explain" election results (or almost anything in popular culture, for that matter) involves a certain amount of stereotyping.  I hate that type of thing, too, but it is inevitable in explaining why things are as they are.

I'm sure when you explain why Massachusetts and Vermont vote democratic, you have to resort to some stereotyping.  What do you think it is when one is called a "Massachusetts liberal" or a "liberal elite" or a "politically correct snob"?  Do those terms describe ALL Kerry voters?  You certainly hear them used as if they do. 
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Nym90
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2004, 11:54:01 AM »

any attempts to "explain" election results (or almost anything in popular culture, for that matter) involves a certain amount of stereotyping.  I hate that type of thing, too, but it is inevitable in explaining why things are as they are.

I'm sure when you explain why Massachusetts and Vermont vote democratic, you have to resort to some stereotyping.  What do you think it is when one is called a "Massachusetts liberal" or a "liberal elite" or a "politically correct snob"?  Do those terms describe ALL Kerry voters?  You certainly hear them used as if they do. 

Good point. The "Blue State Stereotype" is that all Democrats hold the positions on Dazzleman's 4 issues that he describes, which clearly isn't true, and that they all view red state voters with disdain. It goes both ways.
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angus
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2004, 12:43:17 PM »


1. National security - Since the 1960s, Democrats have seemed indifferent, even hostile, to national security concerns.  It seems they are more concerned about not offending our enemies than preserving our security.  OTOH, Republicans have been in the forefront of rebuilding and maintaining our military, and taking the action necessary to preserve our security.

2. Crime/Personal Responsibility - In general, the Democrats exude an attitude of disdain for personal responsiblity.  When somebody does something wrong, they seem to blame everybody and everything except the actual person who did it.  There has been a tendency to make perpetrators into victims, and vice versa.  Democrats seem to believe in rights with no responsibilities.  Their open-ended welfare policies, which encouraged young unmarried women to have children at the public expense, were a perfect example of this.

3. Interest Groups - I have a strong dislike for many of the interest groups that form the base of the Democratic Party.  I think that the "civil rights" groups, rather than promoting black advancement, have become a form of organized crime, and that the "women's groups" are largely a collection of man-hating feminazis who seek to impose active discrimination against men.  Trial lawyers are an abomination, and a symbol of an out-of-control legal system that has the potential to ruin our business climate and severely damage our economy.

4.  Social Issues - While I am not an "evangelical Christian," I find the active hostility toward any type of Christianity that I see emerging in the Democratic Party to be very alarming.  I think one of the most dangerous trends, heading toward a potential constitutional crisis, is the trend toward judicial activism.  The judiciary has stepped over the line of its authority in my opinion, and must be reined in, and liberal groups favor judicial activism because it allows them to use, in effect, black-robed dictators to impose unpopular change on society that they favor.  I favor traditional values in general; I don't, for example, believe that raising a child as a single parent is a "choice" that is equal to raising a child within a stable marriage.  All indicators point to inferior results from this type of child-rearing, and there's no point in pretending otherwise to advance a highly dubious political agenda.

The reality is that the "elites" who are denigrating "red state voters" as extremists are the extremists themselves.  And their hypocritical bigotry has shown through beautifully in the wake of this election.

not concise, but well-stated, particularly the point about personal responsibility and anti-religious bigotry.  Agnosticism comes to me only by default, not by active diminution of all things religious.  personal responsibility precludes groupwide bigotry, as individual actions have individual consequences.

I'd add that another emerging red-state stereotype is dependence on government aid.  That one is particularly ironic.  Particularly since votes in 'red' precincts are won by folks who put down public expenditure.  I find the lack of trust in public services on the right equally alarming as the bigotry/hostility on the left.  Roads, hospitals, schools, bridges, and busing routes don't build themselves, and they certainly don't get built in times of permanent budget deficits.
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Democratic Hawk
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2004, 01:18:46 PM »

The Democrats want to be very careful about stereotyping those who live in "red states" because without those states, there will never be a Democrat sitting in the Oval Office.

The Democrats need to reaching out to 'Main Street' not alienating themselves from it. I fear that the out-of-touch far left will do the Democratic Party much harm. They need to return to the sanity of the ideological centre

Dave
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angus
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2004, 01:58:28 PM »

I did.  for Bill Clinton.  in florida.  a red state.

on the one hand I share the realpolitik/al disdain for this silliness.

on the other, elcorazon makes a good point.  if you're going to try to oversimplify things (and isn't that what we really want from our talking heads when we come home from a long day at the sweatshop and sit down to a nice salisbury steak TV dinner?) then you have to start poking fun at the stiff moralistic massachusetts liberals, and the mullet-wearing gun-toting alabama bumpkin.  After all, critical thinking is soooo 20th century.  Get with the times.
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TeePee4Prez
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2004, 03:41:15 PM »

Yes, I can understand that there are Red State streotypes.  We have Bush voters in my own backyard as well.  That doesn't mean they are inbred rednecks.  However, I hate this "elitist" stereotype I get for living in Philadelphia, opposing Bush and the Iraq war, thinking the tax cuts were wrong.  As even Keystone can attest, I voted for Sam Katz a Republican because our Democratic mayor is a complete boob. 
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2004, 03:48:55 PM »

Yes, I can understand that there are Red State streotypes.  We have Bush voters in my own backyard as well.  That doesn't mean they are inbred rednecks.  However, I hate this "elitist" stereotype I get for living in Philadelphia, opposing Bush and the Iraq war, thinking the tax cuts were wrong.  As even Keystone can attest, I voted for Sam Katz a Republican because our Democratic mayor is a complete boob. 

Well let's be fair here, IrishDem. Just as you despise being called an elitist for opposing Bush, the Iraq war and the tax cuts, I am one Republican who can't stand when you insult the intelligence of Bush/Santorum voters (you have said a number of times that they must have incredibly low IQs) and when you pretty much say that any middle class family who supports the Bush tax cuts are dumb.
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Cashcow
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2004, 04:04:13 PM »
« Edited: November 16, 2004, 04:05:48 PM by Cashcow »

The main reason I didn't vote for Kerry was because he appears to be very friendly with the U.N. and Western Europe. Both seem to be anti-semitic and that scares me. Chirac is a good example. In France and Germany swastikas were spray painted on Jewish headstones in Jewish cemeteries and neither country appeared to be in a hurry to put an end to it. So I'm not impressed with receiving support and "permission" from the U.N. our our "allies". That was one of the main reasons I voted for Bush.
That is a very poor main reason to vote for a candidate. It's not like Clinton WASN'T friendly with the U.N....

Have you ever been to France? I am Jewish as well, and I lived in France for three months. I was just there for two weeks this summer. I'm sure you hear a lot about "French anti-semitism" from your conservative buddies, but honestly, it's not that much of a problem. It mostly stems from young Muslim immigrants of North Africa who dislike the large Jewish community in France. The French themselves abhor these acts - but there's really no way to prevent them.

Also, Germany has extremely strict laws against anti-semitism, which is why most of these acts are committed in France. So you're left with... France.
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TX_1824
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2004, 04:51:01 PM »

The main reason I didn't vote for Kerry was because he appears to be very friendly with the U.N. and Western Europe. Both seem to be anti-semitic and that scares me. Chirac is a good example. In France and Germany swastikas were spray painted on Jewish headstones in Jewish cemeteries and neither country appeared to be in a hurry to put an end to it. So I'm not impressed with receiving support and "permission" from the U.N. our our "allies". That was one of the main reasons I voted for Bush.
That is a very poor main reason to vote for a candidate. It's not like Clinton WASN'T friendly with the U.N....

Have you ever been to France? I am Jewish as well, and I lived in France for three months. I was just there for two weeks this summer. I'm sure you hear a lot about "French anti-semitism" from your conservative buddies, but honestly, it's not that much of a problem. It mostly stems from young Muslim immigrants of North Africa who dislike the large Jewish community in France. The French themselves abhor these acts - but there's really no way to prevent them.

Also, Germany has extremely strict laws against anti-semitism, which is why most of these acts are committed in France. So you're left with... France.

Ooops! I forgot 1992. I voted for Bush.

Cashcow,

   Your right about Germany. They do have many laws aimed at preventing anti-semitic crimes. I probably should not have mentioned them, but I still have some hard feelings towards them for what they did to my father and his family. That is something I've been working on all my life. They are building a memorial in Berlin for those victims of the holocaust. So, in hindsight, I should not have been so harsh on the Germans.
   I received the information on the swastikas from CNN and the BBC. Not necessarily my "conservative buddies", and yes it was all in France. I haven't been to France in years, mid-80's, but I just get this feeling that the French government is very anti-Israel. I don't believe the French people as a large collective whole feel this way. I lived in Israel in the early 80's for three years and I wish I could go back and visit but it is too dangerous now, so I guess my views are based on the experience that received there.

Hey Democratic Hawk,

This is off topic, but I need to ask. I was watching a session of Parliament and I noticed that many, maybe all, were wearing a red badge, for lack of a better term, on the left side of their lapels. When Tony Blair was in Washington he had one on as well. Forgive my ignorance, but what does that represent?

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StatesRights
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2004, 04:53:31 PM »

The red badge represents the Labour party I believe.
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Cashcow
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2004, 05:20:40 PM »

   Your right about Germany. They do have many laws aimed at preventing anti-semitic crimes. I probably should not have mentioned them, but I still have some hard feelings towards them for what they did to my father and his family. That is something I've been working on all my life. They are building a memorial in Berlin for those victims of the holocaust. So, in hindsight, I should not have been so harsh on the Germans.
Believe me, I share your feelings. Much (if not a majority) of my family was killed in the Holocaust. But Germany has undergone more reform in this century than most other nations if any - just keep that in mind.
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TX_1824
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2004, 06:13:22 PM »

Your right about the change in Germany. They have gone from one extreme form of government to another with regards to East Germany. Like I said, it is something that I have had to work at for years. My father, understandably, still hates Germany. He even refuses to speak German and will scorn me if I speak it around him. I've seen the camps in Germany, so I get emotional when I speak of these things. Cashcow, my regards to you and your family. We may have different political views but we have a common bond.
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English
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2004, 04:01:21 PM »

You're being rather unfair about France. Their is a lot of anti-semetism in France, but the culprits aren't French nationals, they're young muslim immigrants from Algeria and Tunisia. Most French Europeans are disgusted by such acts, indeed Chirac has clamped down heavily. He's even banned muslims from wearing headscarves in schools etc!
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2004, 04:32:59 PM »

Forgive my ignorance, but what does that represent?

Rememberance Day. Everyone wears 'em.
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Cashcow
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« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2004, 04:55:30 PM »

My regards to you as well TX.

indeed Chirac has clamped down heavily. He's even banned muslims from wearing headscarves in schools etc!
But that is just plain wrong.
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patrick1
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« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2004, 05:46:25 PM »

 
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This is off topic, but I need to ask. I was watching a session of Parliament and I noticed that many, maybe all, were wearing a red badge, for lack of a better term, on the left side of their lapels. When Tony Blair was in Washington he had one on as well. Forgive my ignorance, but what does that represent?


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As Al pointed out it is for Remberance Day/Armistice day/Veterans day/November 11th.  Red poppies are worn to remember those lost in WWI
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English
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2004, 05:55:08 PM »


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This is off topic, but I need to ask. I was watching a session of Parliament and I noticed that many, maybe all, were wearing a red badge, for lack of a better term, on the left side of their lapels. When Tony Blair was in Washington he had one on as well. Forgive my ignorance, but what does that represent?


Quote
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As Al pointed out it is for Remberance Day/Armistice day/Veterans day/November 11th.  Red poppies are worn to remember those lost in WWI

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe red poppies grew in abundance in the fields of flanders soon after WW1 ended. Something to do with the severe disturbance of the soil and whatnot. Poppies were the first plants to recolonise the area around the trenches. I think that's why poppies are used to remember the dead.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2004, 06:04:00 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe red poppies grew in abundance in the fields of flanders soon after WW1 ended. Something to do with the severe disturbance of the soil and whatnot. Poppies were the first plants to recolonise the area around the trenches. I think that's why poppies are used to remember the dead.

That's it
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Gabu
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2004, 06:04:23 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe red poppies grew in abundance in the fields of flanders soon after WW1 ended. Something to do with the severe disturbance of the soil and whatnot. Poppies were the first plants to recolonise the area around the trenches. I think that's why poppies are used to remember the dead.

Yes, that's correct.  Major John McCrae wrote the poem In Flanders Fields in May 1915 in Ypres.  It related the dead soldiers there to the poppies growing there, and the poppy has become the symbol of remembrance of dead soldiers based on that poem.
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TX_1824
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2004, 07:28:34 PM »

Thanks for all the infomation about Rememberance Day. I'm glad that I know that now. I have always had a since of admiration for the British. I was always a fan of Sir Winston Churchill.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2004, 01:55:56 AM »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe red poppies grew in abundance in the fields of flanders soon after WW1 ended. Something to do with the severe disturbance of the soil and whatnot. Poppies were the first plants to recolonise the area around the trenches. I think that's why poppies are used to remember the dead.

That's it


I thought the Labour party wears some sort of red flower as well?
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