Death Panels in Arizona

[Brittain33]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/11/19/921443/-Arizona-GOP-budget-cuts-result-in-death-panels

No ad hominem attacks on the site where the news story was posted. Read the article and tell me that this is not the definition of what a death panel would do. Then, let's discuss the implications of the fact. We had a lot of dishonest talk about rationing and spending in the last couple of years and the lesson every politician will learn from the last election is that we're supposed to pretend there are no choices at all (Keep your government hands off my Medicare!!) if you don't want there to be.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

This one sure sounds like a death panel......if they don't want to pay for this stuff, stop after the people you promised treatment to are treated.

[danny]

All health care plans have "death panels", it's the way these things have to work.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

That's ridiculous... at the point that you've promised something to people, you need to fulfill that... cut that money somewhere else (even if just temporarily).  They did the same thing with a scholarship here in Michigan, the Michigan Promise.  I have no problem with them eliminating it if they don't have the money, but they promised it to students and then took it away, and that was wrong.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Probably won't be any serious outrage at all. Most of the people will miss it entirely and something tells me Fox News won't exactly be giving it wall to wall coverage.

Also, irresponsible budget cuts can kill, kids.

[Torie]

Death Panels are just a reflection of reality. They in due course will become the norm. We cannot afford to pay for every medical procedure under the sun. In my clan, we have a long and honored tradition of committing suicide rather than stringing things out, assisted or otherwise. And that was not done for financial reasons per se. Heck, my grandfather was an MD, and just prescribed himself some morphine, and shot himself up with a massive overdose. My father did the same for his mother, the woman that he probably loved more than any other on this earth. And then my Dad did the same thing to himself. And I shall do the same.

[Ban my account ffs!]

What a garbage state.  Eh... the whole place will collapse anyway when the Colorado runs dry and oil is too expensive to make piping the stuff in worth the cost for people to stay there.  There will be a mass exodus and the place will become extremely dangerous as crime skyrockets for those unable to escape.

And I'll be nervously laughing while I let the water run as I brush my teeth.

[Torie]

What a garbage state.  Eh... the whole place will collapse anyway when the Colorado runs dry and oil is too expensive to make piping the stuff in worth the cost for people to stay there.  There will be a mass exodus and the place will become extremely dangerous as crime skyrockets for those unable to escape.

And I'll be nervously laughing while I let the water run as I brush my teeth.

Take a toke man. It helps me from being a total ahole.

[Ban my account ffs!]

What a garbage state.  Eh... the whole place will collapse anyway when the Colorado runs dry and oil is too expensive to make piping the stuff in worth the cost for people to stay there.  There will be a mass exodus and the place will become extremely dangerous as crime skyrockets for those unable to escape.

And I'll be nervously laughing while I let the water run as I brush my teeth.

Take a toke man. It helps me from being a total ahole.

The state is condemning 98 innocent people to death and I'm the ahole? 

I'll letcha know when a toke means the difference between caring and being apathetic towards an elected body meting out death sentences to those they think don't deserve to live.

[Torie]

Putting aside the merits of the individual cases at hand (and I have not pondered that per se), you don't believe in rationing of subsidized medical services at all Snowguy?  My comment was not about whatever your opinion on that was, but your opinion of Arizona, and your hope for its "future." That seemed a bit over-wrought to me.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Putting aside the merits of the individual cases at hand (and I have not pondered that per se), you don't believe in rationing of subsidized medical services at all Snowguy?  My comment was not about whatever your opinion on that was, but your opinion of Arizona, and your hope for its "future." That seemed a bit over-wrought to me.

Well, the jig is up for Arizona, no?  It's not unrealistic to think that with the explosive population growth of the past 30 years... a return to the climatic conditions of the late 19th/early 20th century and mid 20th century will be devastating there.

And people leaving in droves is also not unrealistic.  And crime skyrocketing there is also a likely result of such a situation.

Moreover, water is plentiful in Minnesota.  It is one thing we have a huge abundance of.  So me laughing *nervously* while the water runs is not out of the question. 

But a state who elects politicians on the point that the Democrats will create death panels and they won't.. and then they turn around and do... well.. they deserve the politicians they vote for.

[Torie]

Fair enough. The Pubbies deserve to be bitch slapped over the "death panels" comment. It was pure demogoguery, as I noted when the comments were made.

AZ will be just fine. True, some of those irrigated farms in the desert may have to revert to the state God designed in the first instance. Plus water will always be there - it is simply a matter of price.

Stuff varies. For example, I probably live in one of the most benign micro climates in the world, in the sense of temperature variation from what is comfortable for humans, with quite low humidity, but not too dry. It very rarely gets above 85 degrees, or below 50 degrees, and mostly stays between about 55 degrees (at night in the winter) and 78 degrees or so (during the day in the summer). So when it comes to heating bills and cooling bills, I don't pay much at all. But some other things are expensive, but not for water for some reason, even though in LA, water bills are horrific. But in my little boring Garden of Eden, housing prices are still very high however, and CA is BK, and has a high income tax, which for me is painful, although I don't mind.

Most areas in the US have their pluses and minuses.

[Verily]

Death Panels are just a reflection of reality. They in due course will become the norm. We cannot afford to pay for every medical procedure under the sun. In my clan, we have a long and honored tradition of committing suicide rather than stringing things out, assisted or otherwise. And that was not done for financial reasons per se. Heck, my grandfather was an MD, and just prescribed himself some morphine, and shot himself up with a massive overdose. My father did the same for his mother, the woman that he probably loved more than any other on this earth. And then my Dad did the same thing to himself. And I shall do the same.

The thing is, these decisions are not about whether the procedures are likely to succeed or whether the people are likely to live. They're not getting the donations because they're poor. It's economic eugenics.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Horrible, but about what one should expect when the State gets involved in healthcare.

Yes.  We all know if we had no government, the poor could get hearts at Wal-Mart for only three easy payments of $14.95!  But wait, there's more.  Call in the next 10 minutes and we'll throw in a windshield ice scraper and a bottle of aspirin, a $30 value, FREE!  So call now!

[Ban my account ffs!]

Horrible, but about what one should expect when the State gets involved in healthcare.

Yes.  We all know if we had no government, the poor could get hearts at Wal-Mart for only three easy payments of $14.95!  But wait, there's more.  Call in the next 10 minutes and we'll throw in a windshield ice scraper and a bottle of aspirin, a $30 value, FREE!  So call now!

Stop trolling.

lol

[cannonia]

Fair enough. The Pubbies deserve to be bitch slapped over the "death panels" comment. It was pure demogoguery, as I noted when the comments were made.

No, it's a valid point.  When the government controls the health care system, denial of care becomes a political decision.  That's how people judge insurance companies, right?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Fair enough. The Pubbies deserve to be bitch slapped over the "death panels" comment. It was pure demogoguery, as I noted when the comments were made.

No, it's a valid point.  When the government controls the health care system, denial of care becomes a political decision.  That's how people judge insurance companies, right?

No, cannonia......I think most people believe insurance companies deny care because of profits, not politics....or did I misunderstand your point?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

When the government controls the health care system, denial of care becomes a political decision.

Does it? I think you'll find it tends to be a professional decision.

[Gustaf]

There was a huge row in Sweden about a year ago when the public health care system decided to stop giving expensive medication to some guy who would die without it. He was interviewed on tv about how it would kind of suck to die and all and there were enough protests that he got it back eventually (I think).

[Torie]

Death Panels are just a reflection of reality. They in due course will become the norm. We cannot afford to pay for every medical procedure under the sun. In my clan, we have a long and honored tradition of committing suicide rather than stringing things out, assisted or otherwise. And that was not done for financial reasons per se. Heck, my grandfather was an MD, and just prescribed himself some morphine, and shot himself up with a massive overdose. My father did the same for his mother, the woman that he probably loved more than any other on this earth. And then my Dad did the same thing to himself. And I shall do the same.

The thing is, these decisions are not about whether the procedures are likely to succeed or whether the people are likely to live. They're not getting the donations because they're poor. It's economic eugenics.

Yes, the metric should be the former, rather than the latter - efficacy, age and cost.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There was a huge row in Sweden about a year ago when the public health care system decided to stop giving expensive medication to some guy who would die without it. He was interviewed on tv about how it would kind of suck to die and all and there were enough protests that he got it back eventually (I think).

Yeah, but that sort of thing is hardly normal (and, though maybe Sweden is different, is usually driven by pharmaceutical companies trying to con extra money from the healthcare system). The key point is that decisions on withdrawing treatment are not made on political grounds; the idea that they are (or would inevitably be) is paranoid fantasy.

[opebo]

...We cannot afford to pay for every medical procedure under the sun.

Well, actually we could, if we had reasonable levels of taxation.

But leaving that aside, do you feel confident of being able to access the requisite amount of heroin or morphine for your departure?

[Torie]

...We cannot afford to pay for every medical procedure under the sun.

Well, actually we could, if we had reasonable levels of taxation.

But leaving that aside, do you feel confident of being able to access the requisite amount of heroin or morphine for your departure?

Of course!  Do you think I am that incompetent?   

[Insula Dei]

This could never happen here. And I live in an evil communist/fascist hellhole where all healthcare is semi-nationalized (actually ran by the mutualities and overseen by the government).

[Badger]

Death Panels are just a reflection of reality. They in due course will become the norm. We cannot afford to pay for every medical procedure under the sun. In my clan, we have a long and honored tradition of committing suicide rather than stringing things out, assisted or otherwise. And that was not done for financial reasons per se. Heck, my grandfather was an MD, and just prescribed himself some morphine, and shot himself up with a massive overdose. My father did the same for his mother, the woman that he probably loved more than any other on this earth. And then my Dad did the same thing to himself. And I shall do the same.

Er, uh....."Happy Thanksgiving everyone"?