Doctor Who Thread

[Antonio the Sixth]

Hey, I was wondering if besides ArchangelZero, there were other Doctor Who fans around here.

Personally, I've discovered this series last summer and I like it more and more season after season. It's rarely seen a series combining action, sci-fi, suspense and humour (and what a clever british humour ! ). I'm usually not fond of this kind of things, but Doctor Who is something unique.

I've seen the seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4 entirely, but still not season 5 (as it still hasn't begun in France), so I'd ask you to avoid spoilers if you can.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Hey, I was wondering if besides ArchangelZero, there were other Doctor Who fans around here.

Yes, I'm one.

An appropriate day to ask; the show is 47 today.

Oh, really. LOL, I didn't even know that !

Hey, I was wondering if besides ArchangelZero, there were other Doctor Who fans around here.

Thanks for singling me out.

What did you understand ? What I meant is just that I already knew you were a Dr Who fan.

I even intended to PM you if you hadn't noticed the thread.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sadly, I've never seen an episode of the old series, but I think I'm gonna dowload a few episodes one day to see how they were.

Also, let's talk about the actors. I've enjoyed the ninth doctor, Christopher Eccleston, and was very sad to see him written out so early in the show. I was a bit disappointed by David Tennant at his beginnings (I found his "humour" too childish and less witty than Eccleston's), but I think his performance improved in season 3 and 4 (I also probably gradually got more used to his acting). As I've never seen season 5 I don't know Matt Smith, though what I've seen in this thread makes me quite worried.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, basically what made me skeptical about the early Tennant was his kind of "hey, let's just have fun !" attitude. Of course episodes like The Satan Pit made me fully change my mind, and if we had any doubt about the maturity of the tenth doctor, the Season 3's finale definitely cleared them all. I actually think "angst and moodiness" are also an important part of the doctor's personality : he is and will remain a lonely, tormented and unsure being. Anyways, that did never prevent him from being a master regarding humour (the way the 9th doctor wielded irony and sarcasm was just epic). I think the best doctor should be able to embrace the character's formidable ambiguity.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well true, but the fans started to scream "WHEN THE HELL IS HE GONNA GET OVER IT" lol.

Well, just try to immagine the USA suddenly disappearing with all its inhabitant except you : I think it would be pretty hard to get over it. Anyways, fans will always have something to complain about : that's pretty much what they we are for.


Also, what about the doctor's companions ? They are of course very important in the telefilm, maybe almost as much as the doctor himself.
I've never really liked Rose (depressingly predictable, occasionally very naive and stupid), but I hated her since it started to look like the doctor was kind of falling in love of her. Really guy, wake up ! Her mother was hilarious though, and I loved when the doctor makes fun of "Rickey". Anyways, Rose needs to finally stay in her little useless parallel universe and never come back.
Martha Jones was awesome, she was definitely the best of the first 3 (don't know of Amy). She was clever, energetic, sensitive... in one word, worthy of the place she occupied. Too bad the doctor was still thinking to the useless blonde and didn't give a sh*t about her.
Donna Noble looked far too lunatic/erratic for my tastes, so I was kind of disappointed at the beginning (especially after Martha). But I eventually got used to her "original" style and found her endearing. And the way she ended up made me so sad...
Well, there's also Jack Harckness. While in "the empty child" I was thinking "who the hell is this idiot", he revealed to be an epic character and I missed him after season 1. He was still great in the season 3 finale, as "Mr Die Hard", but in season 4's he became a bit irrelevant between all the other guys.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well true, but the fans started to scream "WHEN THE HELL IS HE GONNA GET OVER IT" lol.

Well, just try to immagine the USA suddenly disappearing with all its inhabitant except you : I think it would be pretty hard to get over it. Anyways, fans will always have something to complain about : that's pretty much what they we are for.

Well yeah, but it was his fault....twice.

His fault, how so ? (did I miss something ? )

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well true, but the fans started to scream "WHEN THE HELL IS HE GONNA GET OVER IT" lol.

Well, just try to immagine the USA suddenly disappearing with all its inhabitant except you : I think it would be pretty hard to get over it. Anyways, fans will always have something to complain about : that's pretty much what they we are for.

Well yeah, but it was his fault....twice.

His fault, how so ? (did I miss something ? )

     You didn't watch The End Of Time, did you?

No, I didnt, so PLEASE SHUT UP EVERYBODY !!!

[Antonio the Sixth]

Hey guys, time for a little bump !

I've just watched all the specials and the first three episodes of season 5, and I must say I'm still charmed !

The end of time was a beautiful episod, with an intensity rarely seen. It was very disturbing at some point, especially realizing that the Time Lords weren't as good as the Doctor pretended. I'd have hoped to see more feelings from the Doctor, I'm surprised he wasn't more affected by all these events, and maybe I'd have seen him esitating more before sending his own race to oblivion. But it was undoubtely one of the greatest episodes of the series.

The new season was... surprising. We got a brand new doctor, who has still to show his character, but the first signs are encouraging (I've loved the scene whe he speaks to the Ataraxi). The first episode is surprisingly good (first episodes are usually pretty unappealing) : I've liked the plot, there was far more suspense than usual... And Amy is a great character. I guess it's too soon to say that, but she has the potential to equal Martha. She is far more clever, authentic and emotional than the usual Doctor's companions. This time, the doctor has probably got someone he deserves : let's hope she will stay for more than a season.

The second episode was heart-blowing. All right, I'm probably a quite sensitive person, but I felt extemely uncomfortable after watching it. Regardless of the emotional aspect (and there is too much emotion in this episode), it's probably one of the best episodes of the series. The concept of the "forget" button is probably one of the most creative sci-fi ideas I've ever seen (all right, I know nothing about sci-fi ), and the way it was used is excellent. The social and moral implications of this episode are extremely deep, as they have rarely been in the series. And of course Amy's final intervention was what convinced me that she was great.

Not so much to say about the third episode, partly because I was still traumatized by the second one. I've liked the spatio-temporal location, especially due to Churchill's characters. But honestly, I was a bit fed up of the Daleks. I think the dalek episodes would be percieved better if they weren't much frequent : twice per season (because they will certainly reappear in the season finale or close to it) is too much. Anyways, the plot was interesting, with the idea of Daleks manipulating humans and the doctor itself to win. However, what I can't bear is the fact the scenarists can't find an original way to explain the Dalek's return. Another ship survived from the Time War ! O rly ? Again ? Maybe we will eventually learn  that in fact 99% of the Daleks survived to the Time War (which would lead us to think that the Doctor's true aim was to kill the Time Lords, not the Daleks). As for the rest, fine episode ; the android is lovely.

[Antonio the Sixth]

     I've also gotten around to watching season 5 (or season 31, to be pedantic ) in the meantime, & I must say that I liked Matt Smith a lot. I think I had just gotten too attached to David Tennant since he was the only incarnation of the Doctor who I was familiar with.

Yeah, that's it. Hell, I got attached to Eccleston despite he stayed for only one season ! I think it will take a while for me to "accept" the new personnality, but of course it all depends to Smith and Moffat.

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They were said to be "hybrids", which seems an allusion to the Daleks of the season 1 finale (the Emperor used human meat to create new Daleks and prepare the invasion of the Earth). But once again, they can't came with new Dalek survivors every two minutes and pretend we believe they were "destroyed" in the Time War.
I've also liked the Cult of Skaro and maybe they could have made it last for a few more episodes. However at some time the scenarist have to give us a definitive answer : are they gone or not ?

Antonio, if you think Episode 2 was heartbreaking, just wait until you watch Episode 8 (Vincent and the Doctor), or even A Christmas Carol (this year's Christmas Special).  Those are the two most emotional stories I've seen since Matt Smith took the helm.

Well, I have nothing to say but "wow !". Looks like this series is even more promising than I imagined. But I don't know if I will be able to bear so much emotions...

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The next two are about the weeping angels, right ? Blink was a great episode, so it's great to see them back. I'll wait to watch them in French however, both because I don't enjoy watching these kind of series in foreign languages and also because I don't want to finish the series too quickly.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Of course it's too early for me to have a definitive judgment of Amy, but so far she's really promising. As Afleitch said it's good not to get back an "impossible love" story as we had in the first 3 seasons. Especially, I find very interesting the idea of making the doctor meet her as a child. I some way, I have the impression their relationship could be more like a father/daughter relationship (again, just a feeling so far).

[Antonio the Sixth]

Wait, River Song will be back ?

From what I've seen in "silence in the library", the Doctor and her are passionately in love. Whether or not they are married is not that important.

[Antonio the Sixth]

That's pretty surprising. I'd have expected her story to be revealed long after, or maybe never (as I don't think it would be easy to show the Doctor and her falling in love). I just assume she's not the random companion the doctor usually gets - I mean, he even told her his name.

[Antonio the Sixth]

As I've done for the most recent ones, I'd like to do my personal rating of the episodes of the new series. I'll give a little comment of each episode and rate it using numbers from 1 (uninteresting) to 5 (epic). Let's share our thought about them.


Season 1

1. Rose Really not much to say. Fortunately this is not the first episode I've seen, or I could have stopped watching it outright. 1.

2. The end of the world For sure not a great episode, but some ideas were interesting. 1.

3. The unquiet dead Mixes some unappealing elements (explaining paranormal facts with aliens is usually lame, but this is a pattern we find in almost all episodes set in the past), with some more interesting ones (Dickens was nice). Still nothing really worth remembering.  1.

4/5. Aliens of London/World War Three The plot itself is quite banal (the evil aliens who want to destroy Earth), the Slitheen can't be taken seriously. But it was conducted surprisingly well, with interesting twists and a lot of fun everywhere in the episode. 2.

6. Dalek This is the first episode I really liked, and despite the load of great episodes we've had it remains a reference of why this series is great. It's the first time when we really see strong emotions from the doctor, when the truth about the Time War is revealed. In one word, I think it's the first episode when we see the doctor's deep feelings, making his character far more complex than it would have been otherwise. The dialogue between the doctor and the dalek at the beginning is one of the most forceful scene of the series, as is the one when he points a gun at the Dalek unarmed. A very deserved 3.

7. The long game It doesn't look like a great episode on a first sight, but there are a lot of things I like in this episode. The idea itself, of an insidious enemy which doesn't act by destroying everything but simply by brainwashing people and make them believe whatever it wants them to believe. Particularly, the way the doctor acts, his ability to see what everyone misses, to immediately understand what is "wrong" there. The episode makes a lot of sense, and once again it shows a lot about the series itself. Once again an overly deserved 3.

8. Father's day The plot itself is quite good (though a bit overdone), but the episode overall didn't make a lot of impression to me. There's nothing really bad either. Just nice. 2

9/10 The empty child/The Doctor dances This is undoubtedly the best episode of the season and probably one of the bests ever. An unseen load of angst, a genial plot idea and an exceptionally dynamic action makes this episode unique. The atmosphere first : it made me feel uncomfortable for a few days. A mysterious child with a gas mask, which looks so inoffensive despite being a threat to the entire human race. Each of his appearances are made more insidious, more upsetting, more scary (the "best" one certainly being the tape scene). The idea itself is one of the best : there is no villain, just an army of brainless robots aiming to "fix" the entire human race. That's maybe the best plot one can find to illustrate the danger of uncontrolled technology. The epoch is the best possible one, there is a lot of action and twists, Jack Harkness coming to make things more complicated... Finally (and quite paradoxically), this is one of the episodes with the most humour. To cite only one, remember the banana. I could speak about this masterpiece for hours, but I'll cut it now. Deserved 5.

11. Boom town I guess that after the emotions of the preceding episodes, we needed something to slow down... That episode isn't really worth saying a lot. Slitheens aren't the kind of enemies you want to see back, let alone in the same season. The episode is mostly boring, and the ending too easy. 1

12/13. Bad Wolf/The parting of the ways The beginning is particularly thrilling and well-done, with the Tardis crew caught in a crazy game for some mysterious purpose. It was particularly enjoying to see the Doctor and Jack to free themselves so easily. The general atmosphere of the episode is quite similar to that of the Long game : we have an invisible enemy who manipulates everyone like a puppetmaster. Some scenes are truly beautiful (the doctor's "with this kind of sentence you lost the right to talk to me", or when we see how daleks are afraid of him). Basically, everything is perfect until the ending. Then we have Rose looking inside the Tardis, becoming God and destroying all the daleks... which screws everything. Really, how could they come which such an easy, artificial ending ?!? And BTW, if looking inside the Tardis is enough to destroy all your enemies, why doesn't the doctor do that more often (since anyways he can then regenerate) ? Or why didn't a random Time Lord do that to destroy the Daleks instead of sacrificing the entire race ? That's pure nonsense. Still, the epsiode is great overall. 4.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I've never "loathed" a Doctor Who episode. The bad ones, I just ignore them. I guess I like to see the positive aspects rather than the negative ones.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Ok, let's go with season 2.

S. The Christmas invasion Nothing particular in this episode, the story could have been far more original. The only great thing in this episode is the Doctor "deposing" Harriet Jones. I loved that scene. Still 1.

1. New Earth First episodes are usually quite uninteresting, and this one is clearly better than the average. Still, it remains a pretty banal one, and Cassandra, like the Slitheens, is not the kind of villain you want to see back every season. 1

2. Tooth and claw This is the traditional "historical with paranormal creatures who are in fact aliens" episode. It's not a bad one, as there are a couple of interesting ideas (also, the foundation of Torchwood is an important event), but overall it's still a pretty forgettable episode. 1.

3. School Reunion That's an episode that could have been done a lot better, especially with Sarah Jane's comback. Giant bats can't really be taken seriously, even when they aim to rule the world, and the episode's atmosphere isn't especially convincing. 1.

4. The girl in the fireplace Undoubtedly a good episode. It's easy to realize it was made by Moffat, as once you go beyond the first degree you find a lot in common with the "empty child". The scene at the beginning in "little Pompadour"'s room, with the broken clock, reaches a level of angst comparable to the season 1's masterpiece. But the most striking thing is how the ideas of those two episodes are similar. There is no villain, this is all about technological beings, created by humans in order to serve them, and who do nothing else that what they were created for ("fixing people" for nanogenes, fixing a spaceship for the androids"). There is no malicious intention, just the cold, rational determination of technology in doing what it is programmed for. This android endlessly repeating "we missed pieces" is a particularly beautiful and forceful allegory which sums up everything I said. Otherwise, the "love story" between the Doctor and Pompadour didn't irritate me as much as it could have. The ideas of space-time windows isn't bad (especially because it's not overused in this series). However, I've difficulties to rank it as a great episode : it lacks something that would make the action more thrilling. 3.

5/6. Rise of the cybermen/The age of steel A lot of interesting ideas. Of course cybermen did already exist in the old series, but I still have to say they are a brilliant idea. They are nothing else that humans, humans who have lost their humanity by trying to "upgrade" themselves. A brilliant idea is also the way they appeared : John Lumic isn't some diabolic mastermind who wants to dominate the universe (well, at least he isn't only that). He is an ill man who tries to free his mind from his dying body, in some way one of the strongest dreams of humanity. As usual, the problem comes when he wants everyone to follow his example. Also, the parallel universe is a nice idea because it isn't again too common. The plot is well drawn and credible from the beginning to the end, and most of characters are great (except Rose who's depressing as usual). Still, I have difficulties to rank it among the "great" episodes, maybe because it is never really surprising and there's no real twist. Again maybe I'm too severe, but I'll give it a 3.

7. The idiot's lantern Neither bad nor especially good. It is thrilling and well-done enough to be convincing, but nothing more. 2.

8/9. The impossible planet/The Satan pit This is one of my favorites, and there is a lot to like in it. First of all, it inaugurates the tradition of "team episodes", with the doctor meeting and interacting with a little team of space travelers (42, silence in the library and the waters of Mars will all follow this example). I think I can say this is one of the most intense episode, with a lot of mysterious elements which remain partly unsolved. I like how even the doctor is unable to really understand what's happening (his reaction to the phrase "before the time" is extraordinary). And how even the Tardis is unable to translate the mysterious language... All this gives the impression that somehting beyond the universe's limits is happening in this mysterious little planet. As I said, formidable episode, the best of the season. 5.

10. Love & Monsters Meh. It can be a funny interlude between two more serious episodes, but there's nothing particularly likable in this episode. Even the fun is quite banal (interestingly, the funniest episodes are also the most thrilling ones, remember The doctor dances). 1.

11. Fear her Good episode, pretty thrilling and mysterious. The idea isn't bad, even though the idea that a little creature can erase the entire universe simply by drawing it is a bit crazy (but we are used to crazy ideas in this series ). 2

12/13. Army of ghosts/Doomsday Can't say I dislike it, but that's still my least favorite season finale (all right, the standard is very high ). I'm not disappointed to see the cybermen back (especially because the scenarists had the good idea to leave us alone with them for a long time following this episode), and the daleks could have came back in a worse way. Torchwood and all was pretty funny, especially how the Doctor interacts with them. I didn't particularly like the "fissure" between the two universes, neither the arch containing thousands (or trillions ?) of Daleks, but everything was well-orchestrated. Of course what ruins everything is the awful pseudo-romantic ending. All this "OMG Doctor I can't live without youuuuuuuuuuu !" and "OMG Rose I'll miss you but you'll be happy with your new family !" was painful to hear. And hell, thanks God the doctor didn't have the time to tell he loves her. 3.

[Antonio the Sixth]

You have really weird opinions.

I've been told that on numerous occasions and for various reasons, so it must be true. Bother developping, though ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Was writing a long post about The Girl in the Fireplace and explorer bugged. Here's a synthesis, because there's nothing more painful than trying to rewrite something you just wrote.

Maybe I underrated it, so I guess I will eventually give it a 3. But what this episode really lacks is some more twists and tension : as far as I remember, there is no moment when the doctor seems really in difficulty. I still rank it below my other 3-rated episodes.

Fear her the worst episode of the series ? For real ? Come on, what about Rose, Love & Monsters, or Partners in crime ?!? Some moments in Fear her were really thrilling at least. Of course as I've said, the ability of canceling the entire universe by drawing makes the episode hard to be taken seriously, but there were far worse ideas.

Sarah Jane was nice as I said, the school's director wasn't bad either. But having good characters is pretty useless when the plot is as dull and uninteresting as School reunion's was. That's wasted talent.

I think most of our judgements depend on what we think to be more important in an episode between plot, atmosphere, characters, action, etc... So everything is entirely subjective and I can understand why we can disagree. Also to note, I think I have a very strong pro-two-parter bias, but again it's understandable (you need a lot time to develop a good plot and makes us take it seriously).

[Antonio the Sixth]

While waiting for new Irish result, I'll do season 3.

S. The runaway bride An improvement compared to previous year's special, but still not particularly interesting. The scene with the Doctor looking at the Racnoss dying is pretty good though. 1.

1. Smith and Jones Martha is great, and her first appearance is extremely promising for the rest of the season. But apart from her and her interactions with the doctor, there isn't much to see in this episode. 1.

2. The Shakespeare code Usual uninteresting historical episode at the beginning of the season. Neither better nor worse than the others. 1.

3. Gridlock Very creative episode, very promising for the rest of the season. I've enjoyed the atmosphere of angst, the feeling that the whole system is broken (the police that never answers, all these people who go to the highway without even knowing what will happen to them)... It is almost perfect in showing what anarchy is, and how people don't even know that everything is out of control. The revelation of the death of all senators is a particularly forceful scene. Of course there is Face of Boe's revelation, which is the main point of the entire season. But it lacks too much things to be a great episode : the enemies (giant crabs) are pretty pathetic), and the action could have been orchestrated better. I'd give it a high 2, but maybe it would deserve more.

4/5. Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks A formidable episode I've particularly enjoyed. Beginning with the historical context : excellent idea to locate it during the Great Depression, this epoch fits extremely well with the story itself. Otherwise, that's mostly an episode about change and those who are wise enough to understand when it's necessary, about fanatism and how it only leads people to hurt others and themselves. I've really liked the picture they give of Daleks, as mindless creatures who hate everything that isn't 100% like them. Dalek Sec is a very interesting characters, it symbolizes people who have the courage to leave their comfortable ignorance in order to get a better understanding on the word between them, and who eventually get rejected by their former community. There are a lot of very sad deaths in this episodes (Solomon, Dalek Sec, the human-Dalek-Time Lords), and that makes it very forceful in feelings (what is particularly beautiful is seeing the doctor personally affected by the death of people he almost didn't know). Finally, the action is perfectly managed, with enough twists to get thrilled until the end. Really, I don't see what is not to like with this episode. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece because it lacks some emphasis (ie the ability to make us feel that something important is at stake - of course something important is almost always at stake, but some episodes make us feel it better). A fully deserved. 4.

6. The Lazarus experiment Kind of disappointing, because it had the potential to  be better : having things going a bit slower (we practically see the transformation in the first scenes), a more ambiguous enemy, involving more feelings/complexity... But what we actually have is the doctor and Martha fighting against a horrendous (to say least) creature, and nothing more. 1.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I must say my favorite season finale is actually season 3's. I've liked everything, even its ending. Actually, it is maybe my favorite episode of the entire series.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I have the last 3 episodes of season 5 still to watch. Christmas special not coming before... next Christmas.

[Antonio the Sixth]

General question: how do I get into Dr. Who?  Where is the starting point for new viewers that doesn't entail watching 50 years of reruns?

You can easily start with the new series and skip the old one (which I've never watched). However, you will have to wait until "Dalek" (6th episode) in order to have a good idea of what Doctor Who really is, and until "The empty child/The Doctor dances" (8/9) to realize how great this series is.

[Antonio the Sixth]

So you mean until Moffat starts writing?

Actually, almost all Moffat's episodes before he took over were masterpieces. His season 5 episodes are overall very good too, but still below the Empty Child or the Library.

[Antonio the Sixth]

She died ? How comes, she didn't look that old...

RIP.

[Antonio the Sixth]

She died ? How comes, she didn't look that old...

RIP.

Cancer, she was 63.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-13137674

Meh, that's really sad.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Wait, season 6 has already begun in the UK ?