What should Julian Assange be charged with?
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  What should Julian Assange be charged with?
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Author Topic: What should Julian Assange be charged with?  (Read 8746 times)
J. J.
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« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2010, 09:48:01 PM »

The state shouldn't exist?  Pure anarchy doesn't work.

Well it does, but that's not the pertinent issue here. Let's focus on why the State is addicted to committing crimes and then arresting people for exposing said crimes.

What crimes were committed as evidenced by this release of documents?

Well, here is an interesting question.

Somebody sends me a secret document, directly, in the mail.  I scan it, and place it online.  I probably can't be charged with espionage.

Maybe, publishing secret documents, but what if it's from China?  I have not broken any US laws.  Do I have an obligation to obey the laws of another country that I've never visited?  I didn't hack a computer in China; I was just sitting in my house when the mail showed up.
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Free Palestine
FallenMorgan
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« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2010, 10:01:56 PM »

I was wondering -- could those rape charges against him be legit, or is it just some BS they're using to hold him on?
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Platypus
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« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2010, 10:05:21 PM »

Irrelevance?
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2010, 10:07:48 PM »

The state shouldn't exist?  Pure anarchy doesn't work.

Well it does, but that's not the pertinent issue here. Let's focus on why the State is addicted to committing crimes and then arresting people for exposing said crimes.

What crimes were committed as evidenced by this release of documents?

Well if they didn't do anything wrong, then what is there to hide?

National security secrets.  You realize that your logic for "if they didn't do anything wrong, what is there to hid" is the argument that some governments have used to pry into civilians lives...
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2010, 10:09:11 PM »

The state shouldn't exist?  Pure anarchy doesn't work.

Well it does, but that's not the pertinent issue here. Let's focus on why the State is addicted to committing crimes and then arresting people for exposing said crimes.

What crimes were committed as evidenced by this release of documents?

Well, here is an interesting question.

Somebody sends me a secret document, directly, in the mail.  I scan it, and place it online.  I probably can't be charged with espionage.

Maybe, publishing secret documents, but what if it's from China?  I have not broken any US laws.  Do I have an obligation to obey the laws of another country that I've never visited?  I didn't hack a computer in China; I was just sitting in my house when the mail showed up.

If it's a document that's property of the U.S., you can be charged.  That doesn't mean you'll be extradited...
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StatesRights
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« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2010, 10:50:44 PM »

The state shouldn't exist?  Pure anarchy doesn't work.

Well it does, but that's not the pertinent issue here. Let's focus on why the State is addicted to committing crimes and then arresting people for exposing said crimes.

What crimes were committed as evidenced by this release of documents?

Well if they didn't do anything wrong, then what is there to hide?

National security secrets.  You realize that your logic for "if they didn't do anything wrong, what is there to hid" is the argument that some governments have used to pry into civilians lives...

If you didn't cut out half his post you would have seen he was making a point. Tongue
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Robespierre's Jaw
Senator Conor Flynn
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« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2010, 11:45:29 PM »

High Treason or the Gulag would suffice. (I'm surprised these options haven't been discussed!)
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
Inks.LWC
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« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2010, 12:50:26 AM »

The state shouldn't exist?  Pure anarchy doesn't work.

Well it does, but that's not the pertinent issue here. Let's focus on why the State is addicted to committing crimes and then arresting people for exposing said crimes.

What crimes were committed as evidenced by this release of documents?

Well if they didn't do anything wrong, then what is there to hide?

National security secrets.  You realize that your logic for "if they didn't do anything wrong, what is there to hid" is the argument that some governments have used to pry into civilians lives...

If you didn't cut out half his post you would have seen he was making a point. Tongue

I don't even remember cutting that out... or seeing it when I responded to it.
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Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl
Libertas
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« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2010, 12:53:34 AM »

The state shouldn't exist?  Pure anarchy doesn't work.

Well it does, but that's not the pertinent issue here. Let's focus on why the State is addicted to committing crimes and then arresting people for exposing said crimes.

What crimes were committed as evidenced by this release of documents?

Well if they didn't do anything wrong, then what is there to hide?

National security secrets.  You realize that your logic for "if they didn't do anything wrong, what is there to hid" is the argument that some governments have used to pry into civilians lives...

If you didn't cut out half his post you would have seen he was making a point. Tongue

I don't even remember cutting that out... or seeing it when I responded to it.

I promise you it was there in the original post; I never edited it. Wink
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jfern
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« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2010, 01:07:01 AM »

The real criminals are those that are upset about the truth coming out.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2010, 02:00:40 AM »

The real criminals are those that are upset about the truth coming out.

Ahh yes, because those of us who want to uphold the laws of the U.S. have really committed a crime in doing so. Roll Eyes
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Zarn
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« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2010, 05:59:08 AM »

Charge the leakers with espionage or treason.

I don't know about our friend Julian. He's not a good person, but that doesn't mean we just charge him with whatever.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2010, 08:57:16 AM »

Ok, Inks, did you support an effort inside of Germany to indict Donald Rumsfeld, George J. Tenet, former Central Intelligence Agency director; Stephen A. Cambone, undersecretary of defense for intelligence; David Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff; Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, former commander of US forces in Iraq; and Colonel Thomas Pappas, the former top intelligence official in Iraq for war crimes?

If the indictment would have been issued, should we have loaded them on a plane and sent them to be tried, or now, since they're all retired, if German charges them with war crimes, what do we do?  They might be guilty under German law......."German law provides "universal jurisdiction," allowing for the prosecution of war crimes committed anywhere, said Rattner, who is in Berlin preparing the case."
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2010, 10:02:50 AM »

A very good analysis by WaPo
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StatesRights
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« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2010, 11:37:59 AM »

Interesting how no Clinton era papers are on this release. Pretty benign stuff anyway.
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phk
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« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2010, 01:35:14 PM »
« Edited: November 30, 2010, 01:37:32 PM by phknrocket1k »

I believe whoever is leaking things to him is probably breaking his NDA that he signed.

It really would be if I took an old employer's customer list (which is their property) and leaked it, for no reason.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2010, 01:36:45 PM »
« Edited: November 30, 2010, 01:43:23 PM by Grumps »

I believe whoever is leaking things to him is probably breaking his NDA that he signed.

And I'm not content to think it's some lowly service man leaking it.......I think he has a very high placed source.
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WillK
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« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2010, 02:27:23 PM »

[quote author=Assemblyman & Queen Mum Inks.LWC
I'd like you to answer this... he's been charged under 18 U.S.C. § 793 (e) and you're on the jury.  Where is the reasonable doubt for you to find him not guilty?
[/quote]

Section 793 is about "defense information" and part (e) refers to information "relating to the national defense".   Does what Wikileaks released qualify? 
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2010, 03:18:21 PM »

Ok, Inks, did you support an effort inside of Germany to indict Donald Rumsfeld, George J. Tenet, former Central Intelligence Agency director; Stephen A. Cambone, undersecretary of defense for intelligence; David Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff; Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, former commander of US forces in Iraq; and Colonel Thomas Pappas, the former top intelligence official in Iraq for war crimes?

If the indictment would have been issued, should we have loaded them on a plane and sent them to be tried, or now, since they're all retired, if German charges them with war crimes, what do we do?  They might be guilty under German law......."German law provides "universal jurisdiction," allowing for the prosecution of war crimes committed anywhere, said Rattner, who is in Berlin preparing the case."

I have no problem with Germany charging Rumsfeld with war crimes.  I don't think he authorized torture, however, so it's unlikely that the U.S. would extradite him.

I'm not saying that we need to demand Assange be extradited... that's up to the government of the country he's in at the time.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2010, 03:19:12 PM »

Interesting how no Clinton era papers are on this release. Pretty benign stuff anyway.

You're right... it jumps from 1990 to 2003... interesting.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2010, 03:22:20 PM »

the Julian Assange's aren't the real problem, rather it's the fact the intelligence and diplomacy departments of the U.S. are filled with antiAmericans.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #96 on: November 30, 2010, 03:23:43 PM »

Quote from: Restricted
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I would say some of this falls under national defense.

Even if you don't buy that argument, there's 18 U.S.C. § 798, which makes it unlawful to publish classified information, specifically, "concerning the communication intelligence activities of the
United States or any foreign government".
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J. J.
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« Reply #97 on: November 30, 2010, 09:05:32 PM »

The state shouldn't exist?  Pure anarchy doesn't work.

Well it does, but that's not the pertinent issue here. Let's focus on why the State is addicted to committing crimes and then arresting people for exposing said crimes.

What crimes were committed as evidenced by this release of documents?

Well, here is an interesting question.

Somebody sends me a secret document, directly, in the mail.  I scan it, and place it online.  I probably can't be charged with espionage.

Maybe, publishing secret documents, but what if it's from China?  I have not broken any US laws.  Do I have an obligation to obey the laws of another country that I've never visited?  I didn't hack a computer in China; I was just sitting in my house when the mail showed up.

If it's a document that's property of the U.S., you can be charged.  That doesn't mean you'll be extradited...

For what?  The document showed up.  I didn't steal it?
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WillK
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« Reply #98 on: November 30, 2010, 09:34:13 PM »

Quote from: Restricted
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I would say some of this falls under national defense.

Even if you don't buy that argument, there's 18 U.S.C. § 798, which makes it unlawful to publish classified information, specifically, "concerning the communication intelligence activities of the
United States or any foreign government".

I think that's a better choice of citation to use against wikileaks.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
Inks.LWC
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« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2010, 01:27:10 AM »

The state shouldn't exist?  Pure anarchy doesn't work.

Well it does, but that's not the pertinent issue here. Let's focus on why the State is addicted to committing crimes and then arresting people for exposing said crimes.

What crimes were committed as evidenced by this release of documents?

Well, here is an interesting question.

Somebody sends me a secret document, directly, in the mail.  I scan it, and place it online.  I probably can't be charged with espionage.

Maybe, publishing secret documents, but what if it's from China?  I have not broken any US laws.  Do I have an obligation to obey the laws of another country that I've never visited?  I didn't hack a computer in China; I was just sitting in my house when the mail showed up.

If it's a document that's property of the U.S., you can be charged.  That doesn't mean you'll be extradited...

For what?  The document showed up.  I didn't steal it?

That doesn't matter.  Both 18 U.S.C. § 798 and 793 have sections that say you can be charged for either posession or even the transmission and/ or publication of classified documents.
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