In Obama's mind, what does "clinging to religion' mean, exactly?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

is he saying if someone weren't so simple, they would compromise their religious beliefs?

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

is he saying if someone weren't so simple, they would compromise their religious beliefs?

Personally I think it was a closeted way of calling them intolerant.

[Saxwsylvania]

Basically, it's saying that religion is a crutch for the weak or the stupid.

It's a pretty odd thing for a Christian to say.

[opebo]

Basically, it's saying that religion is a crutch for the weak or the stupid.

It's a pretty odd thing for a Christian to say.

It is an encouraging sign that Obama may not be one of the horrible christians that infest our polity.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

I do cling to my faith. And not all of us are horrible in matters of polity. Look at Calvin Coolidge for example.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Basically, it's saying that religion is a crutch for the weak or the stupid.

It's a pretty odd thing for a Christian to say.

It is an encouraging sign that Obama may not be one of the horrible christians that infest our polity.

That would be just awful! I mean, they believe in kindness and they believe in redemption, that has to be the worst religion on the face of the earth!

Well not all are awful...

But many practice those principles based from their viewpoint... they persecute and attack those who don't adhere to their world view. Those who think the Bible is a historical atlas, a biology textbook and more ...

Love, redemption and acceptance is conditional for many....

....and for the OP...


I have no idea exactly what he means... since I can't talk to him.

[Sbane]

Basically, it's saying that religion is a crutch for the weak or the stupid.

It's a pretty odd thing for a Christian to say.

It is an encouraging sign that Obama may not be one of the horrible christians that infest our polity.

That would be just awful! I mean, they believe in kindness and they believe in redemption, that has to be the worst religion on the face of the earth!

Sorry to pick on you, but is there any religion out there that doesn't believe in kindness?

As for the topic at hand, I think his comments show he leans towards agnosticism/atheism or he isn't a very devout Christian. I hope this means he stays away from fundamentalism. It is a very dangerous quality in people with power. Just witness Bush's presidency, and the Iraq fiasco specifically.

[Eraserhead]

Basically, it's saying that religion is a crutch for the weak or the stupid.

It is used as crutch by many otherwise intelligent people too.

[Lief 🗽]

His point (well, I have no idea what his point is, I'm not a psychic and I really don't care but whatever) is that these people, here referring to working class folk in Pennsylvania if I remember correctly, have been driven into desperate destitution by the international neo-liberal institutions that control our economy and our politics. Their economic and social way of life has been destroyed, many of them have lost their jobs or their homes (and with it their self-sufficiency and confidence in themselves). With the destruction of their communities, their livelihoods, their futures and their history, the only thing they have bigger than themselves to attach themselves to is religion. And the right-wing in this country, very cynically as is their modus operandi, will make up false threats to this religion (THE WAR ON CHRISTMAS! BIG CITY LIBERALS! ATHEISTS! BANNING PRAYER IN SCHOOL!) that these cornered, frightened animals of people cling even tighter to this last ray of (false) hope in their lives, in doing so ignoring the real villains who have actually wronged them.

[opebo]

Well said Leif.  The point of the 'clinging' quote was not to criticise religion, but capitalism.

[Person Man]

That's quite poetic. Long story short- "Clinging to religion" means that you have lost everything but your identity and will side with those who champion your right to retain it though those same people have taken everything else from you.

[Redalgo]

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I think what he meant is when people spend their lives in a reality that falls short of the good ‘ole days, and public officials consistently fail to deliver on their promises, it is easy to become cynical about anyone or anything that carries with it the promise of a better future. Instead, people find scapegoats to blame for it all and then turn inward to God and tradition - the two most good and wholesome things in life to many of them that, no matter what happens, cannot be taken away.

Those who lack hope must fill in its place other things to cope.


Edit: Which in hindsight I suppose is a less thorough variation of what Lief explained!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

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I think what he meant is when people spend their lives in a reality that falls short of the good ‘ole days, and public officials consistently fail to deliver on their promises, it is easy to become cynical about anyone or anything that carries with it the promise of a better future. Instead, people find scapegoats to blame for it all and then turn inward to God and tradition - the two most good and wholesome things in life to many of them that, no matter what happens, cannot be taken away.

Those who lack hope must fill in its place other things to cope.


Edit: Which in hindsight I suppose is a less thorough variation of what Lief explained!

but, the way Obama said it was that "clinging to religion" is bad.  I wonder if Obama thought the lives Paul, Peter, and Jesus were examples of people who lived out their lives "clinging to religion"?

[Person Man]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I think what he meant is when people spend their lives in a reality that falls short of the good ‘ole days, and public officials consistently fail to deliver on their promises, it is easy to become cynical about anyone or anything that carries with it the promise of a better future. Instead, people find scapegoats to blame for it all and then turn inward to God and tradition - the two most good and wholesome things in life to many of them that, no matter what happens, cannot be taken away.

Those who lack hope must fill in its place other things to cope.


Edit: Which in hindsight I suppose is a less thorough variation of what Lief explained!

but, the way Obama said it was that "clinging to religion" is bad.  I wonder if Obama thought the lives Paul, Peter, and Jesus were examples of people who lived out their lives "clinging to religion"?

Well, "clinging" to anything is bad.  However, there's believing in something because you honestly want to believe in something. Such beliefs developed in that way way should be encouraged, but such spiritual beliefs should not be considered the only way that one becomes altruistic and avoids a tendancy towards criminal behavior and moral turptitude. On the other hand, there is such thing as believeing in something because you are afraid of what happens if you do not believe in it or even simply believing in something because there is nothing left to beleive in. The President and anyone else have every right to be concerned with the two latter, especially the former of the latter. That doesn't mean that people who have developed their faith through those means should be discouraged from their faiths, but giving those people more to be thankful of is very admirable.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Well, "clinging" to anything is bad.

really?  so "clinging" to honesty and integrity is "bad"?   That is the whole point of this thread - what, exactly, was "bad" about their religion?

...or, was the "problem" the mere fact these clingers were willing to stand for something and therefore expose the flaws in Obama's character?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

You'll have to ask Obama.....maybe it's a muslim thingy?

[Redalgo]

really?  so "clinging" to honesty and integrity is "bad"?

Absolutes can oversimplify it. Integrity is subjective and honesty is not unconditionally good.

That is the whole point of this thread - what, exactly, was "bad" about their religion?

Religion can and for many people is a wonderful thing. It can inspire them to virtuosity, noble deeds, contentedness, and facilitate the achievement of a fulfilling life. Unfortunately though...

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In this sense religion can be a form of escapism - which is unhealthy if not practiced in moderation. We live in a society that was built up by the People's hands. It was not inevitable. It was not our destiny. It was not accomplished by the faithful throwing in the towel, assuming what ills our society cannot receive better treatment, and obediently going on with their lives wrapped up in fantasies - believing in whatever the Bible or tradition tells them to. No. Progress is an endeavor that has to be worked for. It demands of us that we recognize our flaws and set aside the fact that we have sinned - for without faith in humanity how would we ever deem it worthwhile to work together and construct for each other a better world? Religion can be part of the motivation to do that on one hand, or on the other it can be a source of negativity, distraction, and complacency.  

President Obama's problem is not with people having religion. If he were that opposed to religion why would he identify as Christian at all? In my opinion, his concern is that he sees communities in which jaded people use religion to hide from or dismiss - not actively confront - societal problems.

...or, was the "problem" the mere fact these clingers were willing to stand for something and therefore expose the flaws in Obama's character?

That depends upon what they stand for and why. POTUS has flaws. There is nothing wrong with drawing attention to them. It is also completely fine for them to have a different vision for the future of our country than President Obama. Still, if the "clingers" are willing to stand for something it had better not be sad, defeatist notions like, "Government does not care or work for people like us," "This is as good as it gets," or, "Why try? You cannot make a difference."

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

but, the way Obama said it was that "clinging to religion" is bad.  I wonder if Obama thought the lives Paul, Peter, and Jesus were examples of people who lived out their lives "clinging to religion"?

If Paul had clung to his religion, he never would have stopped persecuting those who believed that Jesus was the messiah.  Indeed, the whole New Testament is about how people should not cling to their religion simply because it is what they have traditionally believed in.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

but, the way Obama said it was that "clinging to religion" is bad.  I wonder if Obama thought the lives Paul, Peter, and Jesus were examples of people who lived out their lives "clinging to religion"?

If Paul had clung to his religion, he never would have stopped persecuting those who believed that Jesus was the messiah.  Indeed, the whole New Testament is about how people should not cling to their religion simply because it is what they have traditionally believed in.

  obviously, Paul left his old beliefs, but found a new set which he "clinged" to even more, even to death.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

True, but my point was that Paul didn't cling to those new beliefs because they were a venerable tradition handed down to him from those who raised him.  If one takes the account of his conversion on the road to Damascus as accurate and truthful, then when presented with evidence suggesting those beliefs might not be correct, instead of rejecting the evidence a priori because it contradicted what he had already believed, he considered it and used it to form a new conclusion.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

True, but my point was that Paul didn't cling to those new beliefs because they were a venerable tradition handed down to him from those who raised him.  If one takes the account of his conversion on the road to Damascus as accurate and truthful, then when presented with evidence suggesting those beliefs might not be correct, instead of rejecting the evidence a priori because it contradicted what he had already believed, he considered it and used it to form a new conclusion.

so, then you're saying the religion of those Obama is referring to is wrong?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

No, I'm saying that clinging to one's beliefs without ever examining them is wrong.

[Person Man]

No, I'm saying that clinging to one's beliefs without ever examining them is wrong.