How would you vote ...

[Tender Branson]

No, Antonio....I have a good lawyer. I didn't do military service

You dirty privileged...

Seriously though, I would also probably have tried any possible way to escape it.

Yeah it's pretty crazy, the way it works in Germany right now. Only about 50% of 18-year olds are declared "medically fit" to serve......and of those, only about 50% ever actually get a letter telling them to report for duty.

Unfortunately, I was unlucky on both

What do you need to be "mentally fit" to serve in the military ? I thought officers prefered when their soldiers don't think too much.

In Austria, about 15% of those drafted each year are determined "unfit" for service due to medical or psychlogical reasons, including me. That's why I had the luck to do neither service: military, nor civil service ...

Do you take a test or something like that to be deemed unfit ? How does than work.

Yeah, it's called the "Musterung", in which every 18-year old Austrian guy has to drive to the next military commando center, get rid of his clothes and is left only with either green or pink underpants. Then the medical and psychological tests start. I was ruled "unfit for service" because I have a congenital valvular heart defect (nothing serious though, but the military cannot risk taking people with heart problems, for legal reasons or so).

[Gustaf]

Sounds like the Swedish system until we abolished mandatory military service recently. I wasn't particularly keen on it, since it wasn't a national defense anymore, so I got out. It was easy to avoid, really.

[Tender Branson]

There's a new OGM poll out today for the Kurier-newspaper about changing the draft system and the sacking of the top-General Entacher by Defense Minister Darabos.

Read more about it here:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=107855.msg2796353#msg2796353



Austrians oppose by 28-53 the sacking of the popular Military General by Minister Darabos.

Only 27% of Austrians think that Darabos is "able to reform" the Military, 58% think he's unable.

45% of Austrians think that Defense Minister Darabos should step down, 34% oppose this.

68% of Austrians will take part in a referendum about ending the draft, 32% will not.

43% of Austrians now favor keeping the draft system, 49% are opposed.

47% of Austrians now favor a professional army, even if it costs the taxpayers more money than the current system. 45% of the people are opposed.

http://kurier.at/nachrichten/2068804.php

[Tender Branson]

BTW, the lead of the abolition side was cut in half since a Kurier/OGM poll 1 month ago ...

[minionofmidas]

No, Antonio....I have a good lawyer. I didn't do military service

You dirty privileged...

Seriously though, I would also probably have tried any possible way to escape it.

Yeah it's pretty crazy, the way it works in Germany right now. Only about 50% of 18-year olds are declared "medically fit" to serve......and of those, only about 50% ever actually get a letter telling them to report for duty.

Unfortunately, I was unlucky on both

What do you need to be "mentally fit" to serve in the military ? I thought officers prefered when their soldiers don't think too much.

In Austria, about 15% of those drafted each year are determined "unfit" for service due to medical or psychlogical reasons, including me. That's why I had the luck to do neither service: military, nor civil service ...

Do you take a test or something like that to be deemed unfit ? How does than work.

Yeah, it's called the "Musterung", in which every 18-year old Austrian guy has to drive to the next military commando center, get rid of his clothes and is left only with either green or pink underpants. Then the medical and psychological tests start. I was ruled "unfit for service" because I have a congenital valvular heart defect (nothing serious though, but the military cannot risk taking people with heart problems, for legal reasons or so).

I don't think there's such a thing as a draft system that didn't have that. It was called the Physical Evaluation back when the US had a draft.

[Nichlemn]

Conscription is not cheaper unless your view of costs is limited solely to monetary taxes, since you are in effect taxing the conscripted of their time and labour. Raise everyone's taxes and you still tax people's time and labour, however you don't unduly burden a minority of the population and people's contributions are in the form of work that they choose to do.

[Tender Branson]

Uh-oh. The situation has now changed in favor of keeping the draft.

New Standard/Market poll out today:

56% Keep the current draft system
41% Abolish the draft and introduce a professional army

http://derstandard.at/1296696306438/Umfrage-56-Prozent-fuer-Beibehaltung-der-Wehrpflicht

Tomorrow, a no-confidence vote will take place against Defense Minister Darabos of the SPÖ.

Josef Pröll, ÖVP-leader and Vice-Chancellor, has said that ÖVP-MPs can vote freely if they support the Defense Minister or not ...

Should be fun !

[Tender Branson]

Tomorrow, a no-confidence vote will take place against Defense Minister Darabos of the SPÖ.

Josef Pröll, ÖVP-leader and Vice-Chancellor, has said that ÖVP-MPs can vote freely if they support the Defense Minister or not ...

Should be fun !

It seems that Pröll now got cold feet and said in a newspaper interview that Darabos "will remain Defense Minister" and that "the ÖVP will not vote against him".

He probably knows what would happen otherwise: New elections and the FPÖ coming out as the strongest party.

[Tender Branson]

Tomorrow, a no-confidence vote will take place against Defense Minister Darabos of the SPÖ.

Josef Pröll, ÖVP-leader and Vice-Chancellor, has said that ÖVP-MPs can vote freely if they support the Defense Minister or not ...

Should be fun !

It seems that Pröll now got cold feet and said in a newspaper interview that Darabos "will remain Defense Minister" and that "the ÖVP will not vote against him".

He probably knows what would happen otherwise: New elections and the FPÖ coming out as the strongest party.

Darabos remains Defense Minister, all 3 no-confidence-votes by Greens/FPÖ/BZÖ were rejected with the votes of SPÖVP.

[Tender Branson]

New Lower Austria poll by GfK:



Abolish the draft ?

39% Yes
57% No

http://www.noen.at/news/politik/In-Niederoesterreich-57-fuer-Wehrpflicht;art150,28061

In a new Salzburg poll, 55% want the draft to continue.

98% of those polled also say that they see the mandatory Civil Service as extremely or somewhat important for the society.

If the draft and civil service is abolished, 42% of those polled favor a mandatory Social Year for men and women, 11% for men only and 41% support a voluntary Social Year with a pay of at least 1900$ a month.

http://www.salzburg.com/online/nachrichten/newsletter/SN-Umfrage-Zivildienst-absolut-unverzichtbar.html?article=eGMmOI8VdIvty3WgJfCeHHEWfwwqv6nlidsEhOz&img=&text=&mode=

[Franzl]

98% like slave labor?

Why do so many Austrians hate freedom?

[Tender Branson]

98% like slave labor?

Why do so many Austrians hate freedom?

Because they think that other systems of professional armys will be much more expensive (see NATO countries), natural disaster relief more complicated and the social safety net more porous, so they favor the current system.

And there's probably also the "if I had to do it when I was young and it didn't kill me, the young people of today should have to do it as well"-mentality ...

[Franzl]

And there's probably also the "if I had to do it when I was young and it didn't kill me, the young people of today should have to do it as well"-mentality ...

You know...it's hard to be more freedom hating than that

[Tender Branson]

New Gallup/Ö24 poll:

47% favor the end of the draft
44% favor the draft system
  9% undecided (mostly Green voters)

Referendum:

52% Professional Army
48% Draft System

http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/politik/Schon-74-sind-mit-Koalition-unzufrieden/17589730

[Tender Branson]

Support for abolishing the draft is now significantly down in the accurate OGM/Kurier poll:



49% still favor a professional army, 46% the current draft.

But this is down from 54-41 in December and 49-43 in January.

58% of Austrians also favor a referendum on the issue, while 35% say the parties should decide.

67% also support Austria's neutrality, 24% not.

[Franzl]

Any idea when (if) such a referendum will be happening?

[Tender Branson]

Any idea when (if) such a referendum will be happening?

I don't know really if there will really be a referendum or if the SPÖVP government will make some compromise about national security. June or July has been mentioned for a possible referendum date.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Why did the opinion shift so much ?

[Tender Branson]

Why did the opinion shift so much ?

The second post on this page might be a reason.

[Antonio the Sixth]

98% like slave labor?

Why do so many Austrians hate freedom?

Because they think that other systems of professional armys will be much more expensive (see NATO countries), natural disaster relief more complicated and the social safety net more porous, so they favor the current system.

And there's probably also the "if I had to do it when I was young and it didn't kill me, the young people of today should have to do it as well"-mentality ...

This explains why some people oppose it, not why people initially supported it then changed their minds.

[Tender Branson]

98% like slave labor?

Why do so many Austrians hate freedom?

Because they think that other systems of professional armys will be much more expensive (see NATO countries), natural disaster relief more complicated and the social safety net more porous, so they favor the current system.

And there's probably also the "if I had to do it when I was young and it didn't kill me, the young people of today should have to do it as well"-mentality ...

This explains why some people oppose it, not why people initially supported it then changed their minds.

People were not so much informed about the negatives of abolishing the draft first. Then they got more informed, got angered at how the Defense Minister handled the situation and changed their opinion.

Also the fact that people could increasingly fear that Austria's neutrality would be in danger when the draft is abolished and that that could lead to a NATO membership. Some SPÖ figures, like the Vienna Mayor, are in favor or strongly co-operating with surrounding NATO countries.

Maybe also Libya plays a role now, giving up the draft and switching over to another system during tough times in the North-African areas could be influencing people's opinions.

...

Anyway: Talks about a new Security Policy and the future of the draft will start between SPÖ and ÖVP next week. If they can't find common ground, a referendum is likely in June or July. If the referendum isn't really tight, then one party will be the big loser in the coalition for the next 2 years. Or the coalition breaks apart ...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Oh well, thanks.

[Tender Branson]

2 new polls out today:

Profil/Karmasin Motivforschung

45% Abolish the draft
44% Keep the draft
11% Undecided

http://www.ots.at/presseaussendung/OTS_20110305_OTS0004/profil-nur-noch-knappe-mehrheit-fuer-abschaffung-der-wehrpflicht

Ö24/Gallup

49% Abolish the draft
42% Keep the draft
  9% Undecided

Referendum Question (including the allocation of undecided voters - which are primarily Green voters, Women and younger voters):

56% Abolish the draft
44% Keep the draft

http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/politik/Eiszeit-fuer-Koalition/19450853#textBegin

[Tender Branson]

New Kurier/OGM poll:

46% Keep the draft
42% Abolish the draft

Breakdown by party, gender and age:



http://kurier.at/nachrichten/2080439.php

[Antonio the Sixth]

>30 year olds and women want to keep the draft ?