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Author Topic: US House Redistricting: New York  (Read 49377 times)
NY Jew
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« Reply #575 on: March 02, 2012, 12:43:30 am »
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in regards to point 1 SI could also be connected with Lower Manhattan like it used to be

in regards to point 2 the Orthodox Jewish community calls anywhere from Ave H to U between McDonald and Flatbush Ave (except for Marine Park and a few small areas) Flatbush.

In fact if you would ask the avg person (under a certain age) about most of the neighborhoods names (Manhattan Terrace, Madison ext. in fact most never heard of Gravesend) you see on a map most would have no clue where you are talking about unless they happen to know a Young Israel that has that name.  

I'd definitely refer to the area you're describing as mostly Midwood with a bit of Gravesend and Marine Park as well.  I guess you can call that Flatbush if you want, but when I hear Flatbush I definitely think of the areas north of that: the area around Brooklyn College, South Midwood (which is confusingly enough north of Midwood proper), Ditmas Park, Prospect Park South, and a bunch more neighborhoods on the other side of Flatbush Ave. I'm less familiar with.  Kensington is probably too far west to count.


Just to give you an idea of what I mean look at this headline
www.lakewoodlocal.com/2012/02/05/harav-asher-kalmanowitz-rosh-yeshiva-mir-flatbush-addresses-alumni-melava-malka-in-lakewood/

the school in question is on Ave R and Ocean Parkway.
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« Reply #576 on: March 02, 2012, 12:49:01 am »
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It would come across as cynically and shamelessly partisan and venal but I wouldn't view it as motivated by racism in particular, no.

What I'm interested in is why would the New York Democratic Party, much of which is Jewish if the Jewish Democratic US Senator, five Jewish Democratic US Representatives, and Orthodox Jewish Democratic Assembly Speaker are any indication, be motivated by anti-Semitism, and if it's a question, as I suspect it partially is at least to you, of internal friction within Judaism as a religion and Jews as a people, then how on Earth is that anti-Semitic?
explain to me why the jewish community being divided into 5 districts is different from this
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/30/nyregion/andrew-w-cooper-74-pioneering-journalist.html
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Nathan
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« Reply #577 on: March 02, 2012, 12:59:12 am »
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I, uh...we went over this before?
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« Reply #578 on: March 02, 2012, 01:44:17 am »
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I'm talking about how they vote. That the creepy monolithicism.
just for the record the Only Orthodox area that can truly be considered monolithic is New Square in Ramapo township. (and only New Square not Monsey, Kaser ext.)
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« Reply #579 on: March 02, 2012, 01:44:54 am »
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I, uh...we went over this before?
so you agree we should be included in the voting rights act.
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« Reply #580 on: March 02, 2012, 02:41:17 am »
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The Democratic NY-26 is roughly 55% Obama using Dave's App. Would certainly shore up Hochul
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Nathan
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« Reply #581 on: March 02, 2012, 03:10:06 am »
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I, uh...we went over this before?
so you agree we should be included in the voting rights act.

I didn't say that. I don't see why there's any particular need for Jews (or just Orthodox Jews? You're not being very clear) to be included in the VRA and I also don't think there's any particular reason for Jews not to be included in the VRA. It's not something I'm inclined to be up in arms about considering that, among other things, Congress is much more Jewish than the country as a whole even without the, what, one or two plurality-Jewish districts it's possible to draw?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 03:14:00 am by Nathan »Logged

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« Reply #582 on: March 02, 2012, 03:11:45 am »
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NY-18 (old NY-19 would be 54% Obama), NY-19 (Part of old NY-20,22 would be 51% Obama) , NY-22 would be 59% Obama
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« Reply #583 on: March 02, 2012, 03:42:35 am »
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I, uh...we went over this before?
so you agree we should be included in the voting rights act.

I didn't say that. I don't see why there's any particular need for Jews (or just Orthodox Jews? You're not being very clear) to be included in the VRA and I also don't think there's any particular reason for Jews not to be included in the VRA. It's not something I'm inclined to be up in arms about considering that, among other things, Congress is much more Jewish than the country as a whole even without the, what, one or two plurality-Jewish districts it's possible to draw?
except right now Orthodox Jews feel better representation from someone like Allen West then every single Jewish member of congress.

and most Jewish Representative are people that are very high on our list of people who we wish were out of congress.
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Nathan
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« Reply #584 on: March 02, 2012, 03:57:39 am »
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I, uh...we went over this before?
so you agree we should be included in the voting rights act.

I didn't say that. I don't see why there's any particular need for Jews (or just Orthodox Jews? You're not being very clear) to be included in the VRA and I also don't think there's any particular reason for Jews not to be included in the VRA. It's not something I'm inclined to be up in arms about considering that, among other things, Congress is much more Jewish than the country as a whole even without the, what, one or two plurality-Jewish districts it's possible to draw?
except right now Orthodox Jews feel better representation from someone like Allen West then every single Jewish member of congress.

and most Jewish Representative are people that are very high on our list of people who we wish were out of congress.

Well that's just tough. The Voting Rights Act does not and should not be contorted to guarantee representation by specific members of a minority group who other members of that minority group happen to like. Political ideology does not incur status as a protected minority for purposes of elections. That is why we have elections in this country. Do you think I approve of every Episcopalian or every Italian-American or Russian-American in Congress? Do you think I feel the need to?
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« Reply #585 on: March 02, 2012, 04:16:48 am »
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No map yet?
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« Reply #586 on: March 02, 2012, 05:14:49 am »
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I, uh...we went over this before?
so you agree we should be included in the voting rights act.

I didn't say that. I don't see why there's any particular need for Jews (or just Orthodox Jews? You're not being very clear) to be included in the VRA and I also don't think there's any particular reason for Jews not to be included in the VRA. It's not something I'm inclined to be up in arms about considering that, among other things, Congress is much more Jewish than the country as a whole even without the, what, one or two plurality-Jewish districts it's possible to draw?
except right now Orthodox Jews feel better representation from someone like Allen West then every single Jewish member of congress.

and most Jewish Representative are people that are very high on our list of people who we wish were out of congress.

Well that's just tough. The Voting Rights Act does not and should not be contorted to guarantee representation by specific members of a minority group who other members of that minority group happen to like. Political ideology does not incur status as a protected minority for purposes of elections. That is why we have elections in this country. Do you think I approve of every Episcopalian or every Italian-American or Russian-American in Congress? Do you think I feel the need to?
Voting Rights Act (official intent) had nothing to do with the race of the elected official but the fact that they weren't being represented.  The race was just a sign of that fact.

This is not based on political interests but the fact that a minority of a minority group (that is the most visible form of the demographic that currently ranks as the group that has the most hate crimes against is) that has enough representation for it's own district is being gerrymandered at a rate that's worse then the deep south at the height of the Jim crow era.  and is represented by 1 congress member for example that is putting in drastic danger the lives of the immediate relatives many of the people who live in the said should be district.

Just for the record there isn't a single Orthodox Jew in the house.  Though based on the proportion of Orthodox jews in the country there should be 1.


While you might not be an anti semite you would sell us down the river for a dollar.

the fact that many democrats have your attitude or worse is why most Orthodox Jews rightly feel the democratic party is the party of anti semites.


If this was any other minority group you (this is colloquially I don't know your positions enough to say this on you) would be up in arms.

 (please don't side track on this next point and I think you can infer my position from how I phrased the question)

Please answer this question lets assume the situation was reversed and there was gay neighborhood (which I believe you feel is a true minority) that was divided in to 5 districts (remember there is no other neighborhood that has even 4 CDs) (1 majority Orthodox, 2 majority Evangelical and 1 Mormon and 1 that was mixed so depending on the year they could get representation).  If you combine this gay neighborhood with surrounding neighborhoods there would be enough gays to form the nations only gay district.  In addition these neighborhood are the most gerrymandered neighborhoods on every singe level of government in that state (and they constitutionally vote for things like constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage in that state). And on the Congressional level you get 4 congressmen who try to overturn Lawrence v. Texas by a constitutional amendment.  In addition the other gay neighborhoods in that state are frequently split in half at rates more then any other demographic group.  In addition to this they are the only demographic in the state that for much of the past 30 years that truly couldn't care less about party (and only voted based on a few very important issues) (up until a few years ago) and before 30 years ago regularly voted Republican at very high rates.  And finally even though the gay neighborhoods are growing at rates higher then every single other demographic group in the state for the past 3 redistricting overall the gay community in that state got less and less political power in each process due to gerrymandering till the point where most people saw no reason to vote.  This in turn led the community to have had lower turnout rates then areas where many of the residents weren't citizens.   Then by some freak occurrence there was a special election for congress where do to the freak political climate there was an opportunity to vote your conscience and the Republican party put up a candidate that not only voted against gay marriage but said he was doing this to help gays everywhere.  and you finally were heard somewhat by coming out with unprecedented turnouts to win one of those right wing seats.  Then in the next redistricting cycle the Republicans once again gerrymandered you where they had control and the democrats finally tried to give you your own seat in the senate.  Then the Republicans suggested in the court process to decide the seat before a  Republican appointee not only kept take away that seat was just won but they still left the gay neighborhoods with 5 CDs and not a chance to win any representation of that district.

do you still say this?
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Well that's just tough. The Voting Rights Act does not and should not be contorted to guarantee representation by specific members of a minority group who other members of that minority group happen to like. Political ideology does not incur status as a protected minority for purposes of elections. That is why we have elections in this country. Do you think I approve of every Episcopalian or every Italian-American or Russian-American in Congress? Do you think I feel the need to?

if you do say this you are clearly not an anti semite (this means Jews who follow Judaism) (though I wouldn't want to be anywhere near you because of what I said above about selling us down the river).

if you don't unless I'm missing something logically here (it's after 5:00 AM) (and this could only be on a subconscious level (unlike the other guy I feel is quite conscious of his hate)) I'll say you are a anti semite on some level.
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« Reply #587 on: March 02, 2012, 10:55:47 am »
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Perhaps we could start a separate thread where NY Jew could talk about how Jews, seculars, etc. persecute and hate him and then we can reserve this thread for US House Redistricting in the state of New York.
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« Reply #588 on: March 02, 2012, 10:56:30 am »
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I'll say you are a anti semite on some level.

Please don't throw around terms like that lightly. Thanks.
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« Reply #589 on: March 02, 2012, 11:18:35 am »
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I can see why Ruben Diaz was upset about the assembly map.

The Bronx only gets 1 Rep guaranteed there while Manhattan gets 3.

The Bronx would still have two reps- Serrano and Engel.

What are the population breakdowns of Engel's district there? A sizable portion of that district appears to be outside the Bronx and he could eventually be replaced by a suburban Rep.

Manhattan of course still dominates 3 districts with 2 districts of population either way. So that 1 district has to come from somewhere.
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« Reply #590 on: March 02, 2012, 01:18:20 pm »
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I don't take kindly to insinuations that I'm prejudiced against elements of my own ethnic and cultural background. Also 'anti-Semite' does not mean 'prejudiced against Jews who practice what NY Jew considers 'acceptable' Judaism'. It means 'prejudiced against Jews'.

Why do you assume I would 'sell you down the river for a dollar'? I have no interest in keeping Borough Park and Flatbush split as they are. Almost every aspect of the division of New York City at present is absurd. There is a difference between wanting a more reasonable split and insisting that a specifically Orthodox Jewish district be created just because you personally don't like the Jews currently in the US House, which is frankly ridiculous. It is not equivalent to insisting that an LGBT district be created (which is absurd anyway. If it looked like it was being intentionally split up to dilute representation of a specific group and not other groups that would be one thing, but in this case almost the entire City of New York looks like grass script and there are plenty of other pissed-off groups, I assure you) but rather to saying that even though LGBT people are in Congress at several times the rate of their preponderance in the population (which they are not, for what it's worth), they're the wrong kind of LGBT people and the VRA needs to be exercised to ensure representation of specific interest groups within that set of people.

This is certainly a horrible and uncalled-for gerrymander, but it's political, not ethnic or religious. The things that you're complaining about and feel persecuted based on are political in character.

What you're asking for isn't ridiculous or even particularly unreasonable but it hasn't got terribly much to do with the VRA and the way you're going about asking for it is...well, yeah. I can try to draw a district for you of the sort that you'd want (it actually might be a lot of fun looking over demographic stats to see how the 'white' areas of southern Brooklyn break down ethnically), but I'd like an apology first.
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« Reply #591 on: March 02, 2012, 01:41:09 pm »
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I don't take kindly to insinuations that I'm prejudiced against elements of my own ethnic and cultural background. Also 'anti-Semite' does not mean 'prejudiced against Jews who practice what NY Jew considers 'acceptable' Judaism'. It means 'prejudiced against Jews'.

Why do you assume I would 'sell you down the river for a dollar'? I have no interest in keeping Borough Park and Flatbush split as they are. Almost every aspect of the division of New York City at present is absurd. There is a difference between wanting a more reasonable split and insisting that a specifically Orthodox Jewish district be created just because you personally don't like the Jews currently in the US House, which is frankly ridiculous. It is not equivalent to insisting that an LGBT district be created (which is absurd anyway. If it looked like it was being intentionally split up to dilute representation of a specific group and not other groups that would be one thing, but in this case almost the entire City of New York looks like grass script and there are plenty of other pissed-off groups, I assure you) but rather to saying that even though LGBT people are in Congress at several times the rate of their preponderance in the population (which they are not, for what it's worth), they're the wrong kind of LGBT people and the VRA needs to be exercised to ensure representation of specific interest groups within that set of people.

This is certainly a horrible and uncalled-for gerrymander, but it's political, not ethnic or religious. The things that you're complaining about and feel persecuted based on are political in character.

What you're asking for isn't ridiculous or even particularly unreasonable but it hasn't got terribly much to do with the VRA and the way you're going about asking for it is...well, yeah. I can try to draw a district for you of the sort that you'd want (it actually might be a lot of fun looking over demographic stats to see how the 'white' areas of southern Brooklyn break down ethnically), but I'd like an apology first.
actually it is 100% based on religiosity (the gerrymandering started before we started voting Republican ) and there is no area in the country that comes even close to this in terms of gerrymandering and it is done even for relatively small communities.

I'm to rushed now to deal with the rest of statement  (and just for the record I didn't accuse of antisemitism (it was conditional) just aiding and abetting it)
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« Reply #592 on: March 02, 2012, 02:55:18 pm »
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I'm to rushed now to deal with the rest of statement  (and just for the record I didn't accuse of antisemitism (it was conditional) just aiding and abetting it)

You said "You are a anti-semite (on some level.)" Ok, so you're not accusing him of anti-Semitism, just saying he's an anti-semite.
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« Reply #593 on: March 02, 2012, 04:07:53 pm »
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I don't take kindly to insinuations that I'm prejudiced against elements of my own ethnic and cultural background. Also 'anti-Semite' does not mean 'prejudiced against Jews who practice what NY Jew considers 'acceptable' Judaism'. It means 'prejudiced against Jews'.

Why do you assume I would 'sell you down the river for a dollar'? I have no interest in keeping Borough Park and Flatbush split as they are. Almost every aspect of the division of New York City at present is absurd. There is a difference between wanting a more reasonable split and insisting that a specifically Orthodox Jewish district be created just because you personally don't like the Jews currently in the US House, which is frankly ridiculous. It is not equivalent to insisting that an LGBT district be created (which is absurd anyway. If it looked like it was being intentionally split up to dilute representation of a specific group and not other groups that would be one thing, but in this case almost the entire City of New York looks like grass script and there are plenty of other pissed-off groups, I assure you) but rather to saying that even though LGBT people are in Congress at several times the rate of their preponderance in the population (which they are not, for what it's worth), they're the wrong kind of LGBT people and the VRA needs to be exercised to ensure representation of specific interest groups within that set of people.

This is certainly a horrible and uncalled-for gerrymander, but it's political, not ethnic or religious. The things that you're complaining about and feel persecuted based on are political in character.

What you're asking for isn't ridiculous or even particularly unreasonable but it hasn't got terribly much to do with the VRA and the way you're going about asking for it is...well, yeah. I can try to draw a district for you of the sort that you'd want (it actually might be a lot of fun looking over demographic stats to see how the 'white' areas of southern Brooklyn break down ethnically), but I'd like an apology first.
actually it is 100% based on religiosity (the gerrymandering started before we started voting Republican ) and there is no area in the country that comes even close to this in terms of gerrymandering and it is done even for relatively small communities.

All right, fine. I'll take a crack at doing a New York redistricting and we'll see if the resulting district  makes sense. My prediction is that I can get it up to about 40-42% Jewish before it starts getting ridiculous.

Quote
I'm to rushed now to deal with the rest of statement  (and just for the record I didn't accuse of antisemitism (it was conditional) just aiding and abetting it)

The reasons why I'm not immensely fond of Borough Park and 'Flatbush' have nothing to do with the religion of the people there, even if I take your word for it that the gerrymander does.
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« Reply #594 on: March 02, 2012, 04:19:05 pm »

I didn't see the time deadline for public submissions to the court. Does anyone know if there is a time other than midnight eastern time?
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« Reply #595 on: March 02, 2012, 04:23:34 pm »
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I don't take kindly to insinuations that I'm prejudiced against elements of my own ethnic and cultural background. Also 'anti-Semite' does not mean 'prejudiced against Jews who practice what NY Jew considers 'acceptable' Judaism'. It means 'prejudiced against Jews'.

Why do you assume I would 'sell you down the river for a dollar'? I have no interest in keeping Borough Park and Flatbush split as they are. Almost every aspect of the division of New York City at present is absurd. There is a difference between wanting a more reasonable split and insisting that a specifically Orthodox Jewish district be created just because you personally don't like the Jews currently in the US House, which is frankly ridiculous. It is not equivalent to insisting that an LGBT district be created (which is absurd anyway. If it looked like it was being intentionally split up to dilute representation of a specific group and not other groups that would be one thing, but in this case almost the entire City of New York looks like grass script and there are plenty of other pissed-off groups, I assure you) but rather to saying that even though LGBT people are in Congress at several times the rate of their preponderance in the population (which they are not, for what it's worth), they're the wrong kind of LGBT people and the VRA needs to be exercised to ensure representation of specific interest groups within that set of people.

This is certainly a horrible and uncalled-for gerrymander, but it's political, not ethnic or religious. The things that you're complaining about and feel persecuted based on are political in character.

What you're asking for isn't ridiculous or even particularly unreasonable but it hasn't got terribly much to do with the VRA and the way you're going about asking for it is...well, yeah. I can try to draw a district for you of the sort that you'd want (it actually might be a lot of fun looking over demographic stats to see how the 'white' areas of southern Brooklyn break down ethnically), but I'd like an apology first.
actually it is 100% based on religiosity (the gerrymandering started before we started voting Republican ) and there is no area in the country that comes even close to this in terms of gerrymandering and it is done even for relatively small communities.

All right, fine. I'll take a crack at doing a New York redistricting and we'll see if the resulting district  makes sense. My prediction is that I can get it up to about 40-42% Jewish before it starts getting ridiculous.

Quote
I'm to rushed now to deal with the rest of statement  (and just for the record I didn't accuse of antisemitism (it was conditional) just aiding and abetting it)

The reasons why I'm not immensely fond of Borough Park and 'Flatbush' have nothing to do with the religion of the people there, even if I take your word for it that the gerrymander does.

The population of Brooklyn only has enough blacks for 1 full district. If one operates under the assumption that they get 2 districts, obviously, 1 has to come at the expense of something else.


The 11th district was 74% black after the 1990 redistricting, 71% black in 2000, 60% black after the 2002 redistricting, and about 58% black now.
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« Reply #596 on: March 02, 2012, 04:39:43 pm »

I don't take kindly to insinuations that I'm prejudiced against elements of my own ethnic and cultural background. Also 'anti-Semite' does not mean 'prejudiced against Jews who practice what NY Jew considers 'acceptable' Judaism'. It means 'prejudiced against Jews'.

Why do you assume I would 'sell you down the river for a dollar'? I have no interest in keeping Borough Park and Flatbush split as they are. Almost every aspect of the division of New York City at present is absurd. There is a difference between wanting a more reasonable split and insisting that a specifically Orthodox Jewish district be created just because you personally don't like the Jews currently in the US House, which is frankly ridiculous. It is not equivalent to insisting that an LGBT district be created (which is absurd anyway. If it looked like it was being intentionally split up to dilute representation of a specific group and not other groups that would be one thing, but in this case almost the entire City of New York looks like grass script and there are plenty of other pissed-off groups, I assure you) but rather to saying that even though LGBT people are in Congress at several times the rate of their preponderance in the population (which they are not, for what it's worth), they're the wrong kind of LGBT people and the VRA needs to be exercised to ensure representation of specific interest groups within that set of people.

This is certainly a horrible and uncalled-for gerrymander, but it's political, not ethnic or religious. The things that you're complaining about and feel persecuted based on are political in character.

What you're asking for isn't ridiculous or even particularly unreasonable but it hasn't got terribly much to do with the VRA and the way you're going about asking for it is...well, yeah. I can try to draw a district for you of the sort that you'd want (it actually might be a lot of fun looking over demographic stats to see how the 'white' areas of southern Brooklyn break down ethnically), but I'd like an apology first.
actually it is 100% based on religiosity (the gerrymandering started before we started voting Republican ) and there is no area in the country that comes even close to this in terms of gerrymandering and it is done even for relatively small communities.

All right, fine. I'll take a crack at doing a New York redistricting and we'll see if the resulting district  makes sense. My prediction is that I can get it up to about 40-42% Jewish before it starts getting ridiculous.

Quote
I'm to rushed now to deal with the rest of statement  (and just for the record I didn't accuse of antisemitism (it was conditional) just aiding and abetting it)

The reasons why I'm not immensely fond of Borough Park and 'Flatbush' have nothing to do with the religion of the people there, even if I take your word for it that the gerrymander does.

The population of Brooklyn only has enough blacks for 1 full district. If one operates under the assumption that they get 2 districts, obviously, 1 has to come at the expense of something else.


The 11th district was 74% black after the 1990 redistricting, 71% black in 2000, 60% black after the 2002 redistricting, and about 58% black now.

Brooklyn is about 3 and a half CDs with about 32% black population. The natural division would be for 1 black-majority CD. However with 25% of the population of NYC (with 11.4 CDs), one would reasonably expect there to be 3 black-majority CDs citywide. Brooklyn and Queens are the best places to put them, so that implies 2 Brooklyn-based black-majority CDs.
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« Reply #597 on: March 02, 2012, 06:22:31 pm »
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Brooklyn is about 3 and a half CDs with about 32% black population. The natural division would be for 1 black-majority CD. However with 25% of the population of NYC (with 11.4 CDs), one would reasonably expect there to be 3 black-majority CDs citywide. Brooklyn and Queens are the best places to put them, so that implies 2 Brooklyn-based black-majority CDs.

Well, I guess that's true given the current Demographics. But given population shifts, and NY probably losing another 2 districts next census, the better location for a 3rd black district seems to be the Rangel one stretching to Mt. Vernon that can better pick up suburban black flight precincts.
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« Reply #598 on: March 02, 2012, 06:32:08 pm »
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I didn't see the time deadline for public submissions to the court. Does anyone know if there is a time other than midnight eastern time?

The order just says "by Friday, March 2, 2012", so I guess it's Midnight.

The Assembly plan wasn't immediately posted in the docket, so I guess it's also possible that any public plans wouldn't immediately post, too.
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Torie
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« Reply #599 on: March 02, 2012, 06:44:54 pm »
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I didn't see the time deadline for public submissions to the court. Does anyone know if there is a time other than midnight eastern time?

The order just says "by Friday, March 2, 2012", so I guess it's Midnight.

The Assembly plan wasn't immediately posted in the docket, so I guess it's also possible that any public plans wouldn't immediately post, too.

Is the judge drawing the lines really a Dem hack?
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